AP Article on Ski Industry's Labor Issues

[1dog]

It's an essay in entitlement-mentality.

Noticed this this morning though, they're going to build a college dorm style housing place in Park City to sleep about 1,200 workers. Someone should set an over/under on how many years it takes for that new construction to be completely destroyed. An annual over/under on Park City PD visits would be fun too.

https://www.parkrecord.com/news/sum...77ifHYFxk9x2Cb6_5v3NrOyZi3gcC_vvdSuaLwQQEMcjA

That location is great - but as someone said - what happens when economy does take a break - and what happens to that April- Nov? 'for those making less than 80% of the $58K median income' means $46K or less - thats $23 an hour.
Even the hospitality industry they can work at year-round doesn't pay that well. Lots of migrant workers in Utah too.

The economics of a ski area is steeped in capital investment and then to have to provide housing and a 'living wage' to seasonal employees? I'm just baffled how anyone else except large corporations with access to public and private equity could fund such ventures.

This appears to be an association that will receive some tax breaks - prop. taxes are very low there as it is.

This proposal was started in 1999? and 3 years before 1st workers can move in?

Before the under/over on getting completely destroyed - how about just open?

Have a question - what do European resorts do? They have even higher overhead in housing and cost of living.

 

[deadheadskier]

It's an essay in entitlement-mentality.

Noticed this this morning though, they're going to build a college dorm style housing place in Park City to sleep about 1,200 workers. Someone should set an over/under on how many years it takes for that new construction to be completely destroyed. An annual over/under on Park City PD visits would be fun too.

https://www.parkrecord.com/news/sum...77ifHYFxk9x2Cb6_5v3NrOyZi3gcC_vvdSuaLwQQEMcjA

Really depends on how it's managed. I lived in employee housing at Keystone in 1993 and then Snowshoe, WV in 2003. Both were at least 10 years old by the time I lived there and in relatively good condition because the resorts managed with a heavy hand on housing rules. If you got kicked out of employee housing, you'd also lose your job at the resort.

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[Whitey]

On a separate note, few skiing-related topics crack me up more than complaints about resorts not paying their ski bums enough. Being able to afford to live in a town like Vail loading gondolas should seem too good to be true - because it is. While I have some sympathy for the long-tenured residents that get priced out of Vail-type areas, I will never understand feeling bad for 20-somethings that never understood that they can't afford to spend years on end vacationing in the mountains. The labor and real estate markets are way too efficient for a free lunch like that.

Sun Valley was ahead of its time (not in a good way). When I was ski bumming there in the late 80s they only gave you half price off of a season's pass if you worked on the mtn. Even back then that was something like $700-900. When I got there I figured I'd get a job on the mtn as a lifty or doing something else. But after I saw I wasn't going to get a free pass and the pay was sh!t, I changed course and found a job at a restaurant in town. Night work combined with ski bumming + better pay than on the mtn = win.

I got lucky in that I found a cheapish place to live that wasn't that nice but got the job done. I definitely wasn't expecting to live in a ski in/out place on the pay of a dish washer (later promoted to cook when I lied that a bar back east where I worked was actually a "restaurant" & that I had worked as a cook there. The only food we served at that bar was a bag of peanuts with your beer. I knew they'd never call and check. Cook paid better than dish washer. Although I do feel sorry for the ppl who ate there in my first few weeks, before I learned how to cook). I did have to drive to a bus stop, park, and then get on a shuttle to get to the mountain. It would have been nicer to be closer to the mtn, but . . . I couldn't afford that.

The only downside was that because of my shitty place, my general brokeness, and being crushed every day after skiing all day and then working til 11PM/midnight = never had a girlfriend out there, never got "lucky". Funny thing was it never bothered me. I was too F-ing tired anyway. There was a waitress on the crew at the restaurant that was definitely a member of the go-team. I could of gone with her any night. I just wanted to go home and go to sleep. Plus girlfriends cost $. . .

 

[Keelhauled]

Vail still have a 3% raise for returning employees? Because what a joke that is. 3% on a $70k salary is fine but 3% on your $13 bucks can go kick rocks

My department offered a $1.00/hr raise for returners. On the other hand, they make by all accounts a pretty strong effort to push people who return out of employee housing, so the pay increase pretty much goes straight to market-rate rents. The majority of new hires I worked with got space in employee housing in Avon, but only two second years did, and no one with more seniority. So the actual quality of life doesn't really improve until maybe your third or fourth year. Until you reach a foreman position, the pay scale I saw topped out at $16/hr.

 

[andrec10]

My department offered a $1.00/hr raise for returners. On the other hand, they make by all accounts a pretty strong effort to push people who return out of employee housing, so the pay increase pretty much goes straight to market-rate rents. The majority of new hires I worked with got space in employee housing in Avon, but only two second years did, and no one with more seniority. So the actual quality of life doesn't really improve until maybe your third or fourth year. Until you reach a foreman position, the pay scale I saw topped out at $16/hr.

16 bucks an hour gets you a tent in most places.....

 

[Breeze]

So, apply to Sunday River or Wildcat for work. Look for a place to live. Be ready for that first month, last month, and one month security paid up-front ( for many positions, 3 months is longer than your seasonal employment will last). Don't count on unemployment when your seasonal gig ends, because your seasonal employer jumped through hoops to be exempt from unemployment tax, so you can't collect, either.

I, personally, am all done with the whole deal. 67 years old, been workin my tochis off since 1967, I'm not apologizing for kickin' back.

But think about who will look for a job in an industry that everyone remembers actively running the " work for Les" low road.

How will there be H-2b and J-1 visa workers if total visa allotments are slashed ?

Why should there be seasonal housing on offer in rural communities where full time employees ( teachers, for instance) can't afford to live ?

Where there is smoke, there is usually a reason, and most often that reason is not a joke. It is never a given that past experience hold through the forseeable future.

 

[abc]

never understand feeling bad for 20-somethings that never understood that they can't afford to spend years on end vacationing in the mountains.

It appears those 20 year olds quickly "understood" and doesn't return the next year (so do mountains, that's why they don't give "meaningful" bonus to encourage them to return). Or they don't even get started in the first place, but went to work in town (buying cheap pass) instead.

It's not people "feel bad" about the ski bums. It's people "understand" those kids are needed on the mountain, or the lifts don't get run!

The labor and real estate markets are way too efficient for a free lunch like that.

Sure, the labor market are efficient enough. That's why the mountains have trouble getting fully staffed. Who's negatively affected by that staff shortage again?

 

[BenedictGomez]

Raises? I worked for Stowe for 6 seasons, and I'm not sure I ever got a raise. If I did I know it certainly wasn't $1 per year.

 

[2Planker]

Raises? I worked for Stowe for 6 seasons, and I'm not sure I ever got a raise. If I did I know it certainly wasn't $1 per year.

Spent 20+ years Patrolling at SR. All we got was a season pass ($500-$600 back then), and that was for working TWENTY days minimum 7am-5pm

DO THE MATH - $600 Pass/200 hours = approx $3/hour

 

[deadheadskier]

One of the things not mentioned so far that has really impacted the ski bum / beach bum scene is Airbnb/VRBO. Those services have drastically reduced seasonal rental stock in ski and beach towns. I spent two years in the mid 90s going back and forth between Cape Cod and Stowe. Me and 5 other guys would rent three bedroom houses and share bedrooms. Got the price down around $200/month per person. That's how we made it work on low wages. It's much harder to find such accommodations today because the owners are putting their homes into short term programs more so than back in the day because the insurance policies through VRBO and ease of renting the properties is so much better today.

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[1dog]

Don't know if it's still holds, but a Barrons piece a couple years ago had VRBO contributing more than 40% of Expedia's net income.

I imagine it has hurt the traditional hospitality business as well. As someone said recently,in 5 years the largest car rental and hospitality companies have no cars and no rooms.

 

[EPB]

One of the things not mentioned so far that has really impacted the ski bum / beach bum scene is Airbnb/VRBO. Those services have drastically reduced seasonal rental stock in ski and beach towns. I spent two years in the mid 90s going back and forth between Cape Cod and Stowe. Me and 5 other guys would rent three bedroom houses and share bedrooms. Got the price down around $200/month per person. That's how we made it work on low wages. It's much harder to find such accommodations today because the owners are putting their homes into short term programs more so than back in the day because the insurance policies through VRBO and ease of renting the properties is so much better today.

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I bet it has a real negative effect in that regard. I also think its only a matter of time before we see a vacation real estate collapse. Using North Conway as my measuring stick, it looks little a lot of people are buying second homes they might not otherwise be able to afford. The plan is to buttress their extra costs with rental income from Airbnb/VRBO. It works great in the later innings of a long expansionary period, but it probably won't look pretty the next time America cuts its vacation budget.

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[ThinkSnow]

Spent 20+ years Patrolling at SR. All we got was a season pass ($500-$600 back then), and that was for working TWENTY days minimum 7am-5pm

DO THE MATH - $600 Pass/200 hours = approx $3/hour

When I patrolled at Wachusett, you were only required to work one 6 hour shift per week for the season to get a season pass. Everything else required for patrolling- specific jacket, specific pants, pack, and EMT supplies- all at your own expense.

 

[ss20]

When I patrolled at Wachusett, you were only required to work one 6 hour shift per week for the season to get a season pass. Everything else required for patrolling- specific jacket, specific pants, pack, and EMT supplies- all at your own expense.

It makes me mad reading all this. IMO, from instructing 6 years now at my local hill and talking with people all around the northeast, patrollers get shafted the most out of any ski area position. If I was a ski area insurance company I would make sure that a majority of the patrol was PAID hourly and they had all the best equipment that would be mandated for them to have. $50,000 in wages each year sound better than a multi-million dollar lawsuit if someone hurts themselves then has to wait for a sled.

I was at Killington in May of last year. I was doing what you're not supposed to be doing- wearing shorts and no gloves. I took a fall and got banged up enough that I wanted a bandaid for a few scrapes on my hand. I went to the patrol hq in the K1 lodge. No one was there. I washed my scrapes and found some bandaids and went on my way, never seeing a soul. Unfortunately I know un-staffed (not understaffed) patrol huts are more common than people may think...

 

[FBGM]

Ski patrol has a union now. Mainly made to come at Vail. And it seems like it has worked well for patrollers. Get others on board at other ski areas.

 

[abc]

It makes me mad reading all this. IMO, from instructing 6 years now at my local hill and talking with people all around the northeast, patrollers get shafted the most out of any ski area position. If I was a ski area insurance company I would make sure that a majority of the patrol was PAID hourly and they had all the best equipment that would be mandated for them to have. $50,000 in wages each year sound better than a multi-million dollar lawsuit if someone hurts themselves then has to wait for a sled.

I was at Killington in May of last year. I was doing what you're not supposed to be doing- wearing shorts and no gloves. I took a fall and got banged up enough that I wanted a bandaid for a few scrapes on my hand. I went to the patrol hq in the K1 lodge. No one was there. I washed my scrapes and found some bandaids and went on my way, never seeing a soul. Unfortunately I know un-staffed (not understaffed) patrol huts are more common than people may think...

Ski instructor treatment isn't much better though.

You show up, go to line up, don't always get a class. So you go back to the lodge (because the mountain is so tiny it's not worth free skiing) only to repeat the same in the next hour, two hour... Did they bother telling you it's unlikely you'll get any lesson later in the day, so you can go home? Nooooo...

I recommended a few others to try out for ski instructors where I was teaching at the time, FOR THE FREE TRAINING! All of them quit after a few weeks because they were not getting much lessons, a lot of time wasted sitting around in the crowded lodge instead. Was the free training worth it? Only if you head home after the morning clinic is over!

$0/hrs sitting around? That's $0/hr! Multiply that by several hours is what? $0!

(the pay, when one does get lessons, are pathetic considering what the clients pay for the group lessons, but that's a separate issue...)

In the end, I stopped going too. (I miss the teaching part, but don't miss the trying to find a seat in the crowded lodge part. Plus I have more time to actually ski)

 

[BenedictGomez]

Ski instructor treatment isn't much better though.

$0/hrs sitting around? That's $0/hr! Multiply that by several hours is what? $0!

(the pay, when one does get lessons, are pathetic considering what the clients pay for the group lessons, but that's a separate issue...)

Which is why guerilla ski instructing has become a thing. I had never heard of it until a mention in SKI Magazine last year, but I imagine it's always been an underground thing, though the internet definitely makes it much, much easier now.

 

[AdironRider]

I go back and forth with my personal feelings on ski resort pay scales.

For one, 99% of ski resort jobs are literally brainless and are not (just by the nature of the industry) meant to be career positions or support a living wage full time year round. On the other hand, I do think that the wages are held artificially low, due notably to the usage of visa workers. I think the industry could use a little wake up call to at least provide something real vs. just importing kids from Argentina or Eastern Europe and paying them peanuts. It doesn't need to be salaried positions that would support a family, but it should at least be palatable and (US) market driven.

The housing problem is real though, although somewhat embellished in certain ways. Airbnbs and such have indeed taken most of what used to be ski bum rental stock. However, there is a very loud and distinct notion of entitlement from most "ski bums" that insist on having affordable housing, basically slope side, or right downtown, and it would be great to live alone, oh an it can only cost 400 bucks, and so on. I can't tell you how many people I know here that work like 6 months of the year total then bitch about how housing is to expensive in the prime areas. Like dude, it is expensive for a reason. Meanwhile you can still buy a place 30 minutes away for 1/20th the price or 1/2 the rent.

 

[abc]

Like dude, it is expensive for a reason. Meanwhile you can still buy a place 30 minutes away for 1/20th the price or 1/2 the rent.

30 minutes away by car or on hoof?

 

[catskillman]

Ski instructor treatment isn't much better though.

You show up, go to line up, don't always get a class. So you go back to the lodge (because the mountain is so tiny it's not worth free skiing) only to repeat the same in the next hour, two hour... Did they bother telling you it's unlikely you'll get any lesson later in the day, so you can go home? Nooooo...

I recommended a few others to try out for ski instructors where I was teaching at the time, FOR THE FREE TRAINING! All of them quit after a few weeks because they were not getting much lessons, a lot of time wasted sitting around in the crowded lodge instead. Was the free training worth it? Only if you head home after the morning clinic is over!

$0/hrs sitting around? That's $0/hr! Multiply that by several hours is what? $0!

(the pay, when one does get lessons, are pathetic considering what the clients pay for the group lessons, but that's a separate issue...)

Not sure what state you are in, but you can't do that in NY. Hunter got in a lot of trouble with the labor board a few years back, and now they have to pay you for 4 hours if you work or not. They schedule you now, but have to pay even if no lessons.

Don't let the mtn tell you that you are an independent contractor or any other such nonsense. If you get a W2 they have to pay - work or not