ASC sells The Canyons

[millerm277]

@JimG, because the majority of us don't ski the Canyons or especially care what happens out there...

 

[Vinny]

How come nobody is bashing Talisker for not announcing an extended ski season right off the bat? What are the season pass rates going to be? They'd better have a $299 unlimited pass to all Talisker resorts or there's going to be hell to pay.

Because this company, experts in land and property management, has no more experience with ski resorts than POWDR. And I doubt they will manage the Canyons any differently than POWDR does Killington. This is a real estate company.

Is it because they're out west and nobody in the east cares?

I'll be watching what they announce and the reaction to it very closely in the next few weeks.

Yes to the "nobody cares" because we're on a Northeast forum.

Also, 355 inches annual snowfall, a fantastic surrounding area, plus first rate facilities mean the challenge is considerably less.

 

[JimG.]

Yes.

:beer:

Honest answer.

 

[JimG.]

2 more honest answers by Vinny and millerm...the concensus so far is that nobody cares.
Fair enough...do you think locals out in Utah care?

I did hear one comment that the challenge is less than at Killington. Does this mean that POWDR will be held to a higher standard because the challenge is higher? Or can they get a break because they have more to do? So far, that hasn't been the case.

BTW, I don't ski at Killington much if at all. so, to me, it may as well be out west. And before anyone says it will effect eastern skiing, my home mountain works on a much different business plan than K does and it won't effect my hill much no matter what happens.

Does that mean I shoudn't care?

 

[millerm277]

Fair enough...do you think locals out in Utah care?

I'm sure, however...as to your long season comment, the Canyons (to my knowledge), doesn't have a 50 year tradition of having a long season as K does, and the customers aren't expecting it.

I did hear one comment that the challenge is less than at Killington. Does this mean that POWDR will be held to a higher standard because the challenge is higher? Or can they get a break because they have more to do? So far, that hasn't been the case.

We aren't exactly holding them to a high standard at K, keep a long season, run the lifts, and make some investments in the mountain before you talk about the village. They aren't getting a break from us because they keep acting like they don't care about us, and their actions seem to be only being done to boost their short-term profit.

BTW, I don't ski at Killington much if at all. so, to me, it may as well be out west. And before anyone says it will effect eastern skiing, my home mountain works on a much different business plan than K does and it won't effect my hill much no matter what happens.

Isn't your home mountain Hunter?

 

[JimG.]

Isn't your home mountain Hunter?

Yup, the hill all the NYer's and Jerseyites drive by on the way to Killington, at least the ones who don't know any better.

Wait a minute, if K goes belly up then those folks might start going to Hunter. Crap, it will effect my home hill.

Now I have to pull even harder for POWDR to get it right.

 

[Vinny]

I did hear one comment that the challenge is less than at Killington. Does this mean that POWDR will be held to a higher standard because the challenge is higher? Or can they get a break because they have more to do?

Nobody should get a break. It's all business. The expected challenge or risk is taken into account during the purchase negotiations. If the risk is higher the purchase price should be proportionaly less.

 

[JimG.]

Nobody should get a break. It's all business.

Remember, the word nobody includes skiers too.

I know that's not what you meant to say, but it's a fact.

 

[ctenidae]

On the upside, maybe POWDR's just getting all the bad news and mistakes out of the way early. Come winter, maybe they'll be perfect. Really, they should be at least given the benefit of the doubt until they have a couple seasons under their belt. It is, though,a lot more fun to smack them around a bit. Maybe they're reading this forum, and it'll help guide them and keep them honest. I might win the lottery tomorrow, too.

 

[JimG.]

On the upside, maybe POWDR's just getting all the bad news and mistakes out of the way early. Come winter, maybe they'll be perfect. Really, they should be at least given the benefit of the doubt until they have a couple seasons under their belt. It is, though,a lot more fun to smack them around a bit. Maybe they're reading this forum, and it'll help guide them and keep them honest. I might win the lottery tomorrow, too.

Alot of negative feelings, that's for sure.

There's no way they can't know what the sentiment is right now. So, they know and have an idea on how to reverse that, or they don't care.

At this point, I see no way they can reverse what bad feeling exist and not go against the stated itinerary. So, they don't care...as in don't care about the current demographic skiing there. They want something else. All I see is an Okemo/Stratton like clientele.

Geoff, whose well informed opinions I alway respect highly here and elsewhere, has stated that K is the "Beast of the East" and always will be, that it will never be a family mountain. I'm wondering if that statement comes from a "that's the way it alway was and that's the way it always will be" frame of mind or from an "it's just impossible to ever turn K into a family mountain" perspective. I'd like to expand on that.

 

[millerm277]

They want something else. All I see is an Okemo/Stratton like clientele.

I think that's what they'd like, but I sincerely doubt that they'll be able to get that clientele.

I'm wondering if that statement comes from a "that's the way it alway was and that's the way it always will be" frame of mind or from an "it's just impossible to ever turn K into a family mountain" perspective. I'd like to expand on that.

It would be virtually impossible to make K into a family mountain, here's a couple reasons:

The multiple base areas, and possibility of being stranded in one area that could be a 20 minute drive away at the end of the day means families tend not to be able to let their kids split up from them for a run or two, unless they plan where they're going.

In order for a beginner to get back from GE, which is the best beginner trail. (unless the northbrook quad is running), they have to take a long and flat crossover, that can be a bit dangerous.

The majority of the mountain is mid-intermediate and higher, and it can get bumpy or icy very quickly, and other than on snowshed, the only other options for beginners are GE, which is busy, Great Northern, which has a bunch of dangerous intersections and a semi-flat part, and Frolic/Caper, both of which have long flat sections and are more of connector trails.

A large portion of the people who ski at K from the NY Metro area....so, it's the same type of people that you find at Hunter on a weekend....

 

[drjeff]

Alot of negative feelings, that's for sure.

There's no way they can't know what the sentiment is right now. So, they know and have an idea on how to reverse that, or they don't care.

At this point, I see no way they can reverse what bad feeling exist and not go against the stated itinerary. So, they don't care...as in don't care about the current demographic skiing there. They want something else. All I see is an Okemo/Stratton like clientele.

The bigger concept here is that a huge majority of the folks that will ski/ride K this coming year(and buy a ton of day tixs and occupy a ton of K managed lodging) have absolutely no clue who POWDR and/or S+P Land is/what they've done, or even that K is under new management.

For a small percentage of K regulars, the new management has definately left a very strong(and negative) 1st impression, but that small percentage of alienated folks also only contributes a small percentage to K's overall cash influx each year too.

As an almost 3 decade now ski addict, the descisions that POWDR and co. are making irks me deeply and strikes at the very core of not only an Eastern icon, but a ski industry icon.

As a business owner I can also see where they're coming from and from time to time realize that in order to function in an ever evolving business climate that you need to sometimes make changes that short term seem unpopular but long term may very well be the difference between future stagnation and future growth.

 

[eastcoastpowderhound]

The only problem with a connect is that Park City Mountain Resort occupies the skiable space between DV and The Canyons,

Not a problem, Talisker owns the land PCMR is on too...Powdr leases it from them. The snowboard thing didn't stand in the way of Snowbird and Alta connecting...unless you're a boarder of course.

 

[JimG.]

I think that's what they'd like, but I sincerely doubt that they'll be able to get that clientele.



It would be virtually impossible to make K into a family mountain, here's a couple reasons:

The multiple base areas, and possibility of being stranded in one area that could be a 20 minute drive away at the end of the day means families tend not to be able to let their kids split up from them for a run or two, unless they plan where they're going.

In order for a beginner to get back from GE, which is the best beginner trail. (unless the northbrook quad is running), they have to take a long and flat crossover, that can be a bit dangerous.

The majority of the mountain is mid-intermediate and higher, and it can get bumpy or icy very quickly, and other than on snowshed, the only other options for beginners are GE, which is busy, Great Northern, which has a bunch of dangerous intersections and a semi-flat part, and Frolic/Caper, both of which have long flat sections and are more of connector trails.

A large portion of the people who ski at K from the NY Metro area....so, it's the same type of people that you find at Hunter on a weekend....

Good stuff millerm...I admit Hunter is better set up for beginners with most of the Hunter One area user friendly for them. And that area is now self contained with the learning center they built. And there is a logical progression from Hunter One over to B-lift and then D-lift where the now intermediate can ski and then progress to expert on Racer's Edge before attempting to load the quad. At least that's how I looked at the area when I was an instructor.

It's funny, I know K is spread out but to me if it was well organized and set up that should be an advantage for beginners and families because of the added acreage and space. It sounds like the connectors and runouts are poorly designed. If that issue was addressed and the connectors better designed to keep beginners safe and together more or less, could this problem be addressed and fixed?

 

[JimG.]

The bigger concept here is that a huge majority of the folks that will ski/ride K this coming year(and buy a ton of day tixs and occupy a ton of K managed lodging) have absolutely no clue who POWDR and/or S+P Land is/what they've done, or even that K is under new management.

For a small percentage of K regulars, the new management has definately left a very strong(and negative) 1st impression, but that small percentage of alienated folks also only contributes a small percentage to K's overall cash influx each year too.

As an almost 3 decade now ski addict, the descisions that POWDR and co. are making irks me deeply and strikes at the very core of not only an Eastern icon, but a ski industry icon.

As a business owner I can also see where they're coming from and from time to time realize that in order to function in an ever evolving business climate that you need to sometimes make changes that short term seem unpopular but long term may very well be the difference between future stagnation and future growth.

Very objective comments. I agree with everything you've written.

From the skier's perspective, it pains me too. I'm just trying to lend some justification to understanding what they're up to. So far, I'm failing but still trying.

 

[millerm277]

It's funny, I know K is spread out but to me if it was well organized and set up that should be an advantage for beginners and families because of the added acreage and space. It sounds like the connectors and runouts are poorly designed. If that issue was addressed and the connectors better designed to keep beginners safe and together more or less, could this problem be addressed and fixed?

Some of the problems, such as a couple of the intersections on Great Northern are easily fixable, others, such as the lack of much in beginner trails outside of Snowshed/Rams Head are impossible to fix.

Rams Head and Snowshed are great for families, but Rams Head can get massive lines and crowds on the weekends.

Basically, because of how it was developed over the years (Great Northern was not designed for the amount of traffic it gets, and the same goes for some other trails), it is pretty hard to fix some of the most problematic areas, although some improvements can be done.

 

[JimG.]

Some of the problems, such as a couple of the intersections on Great Northern are easily fixable, others, such as the lack of much in beginner trails outside of Snowshed/Rams Head are impossible to fix.

Rams Head and Snowshed are great for families, but Rams Head can get massive lines and crowds on the weekends.

Basically, because of how it was developed over the years (Great Northern was not designed for the amount of traffic it gets, and the same goes for some other trails), it is pretty hard to fix some of the most problematic areas, although some improvements can be done.

I really need to go there for a few days...it takes me that long to know my way around a place like MRG or Wildcat and those places are small and contained compared to K.

 

[MikeTrainor]

The bigger concept here is that a huge majority of the folks that will ski/ride K this coming year(and buy a ton of day tixs and occupy a ton of K managed lodging) have absolutely no clue who POWDR and/or S+P Land is/what they've done, or even that K is under new management.

For a small percentage of K regulars, the new management has definately left a very strong(and negative) 1st impression, but that small percentage of alienated folks also only contributes a small percentage to K's overall cash influx each year too.

As an almost 3 decade now ski addict, the descisions that POWDR and co. are making irks me deeply and strikes at the very core of not only an Eastern icon, but a ski industry icon.

As a business owner I can also see where they're coming from and from time to time realize that in order to function in an ever evolving business climate that you need to sometimes make changes that short term seem unpopular but long term may very well be the difference between future stagnation and future growth.

While people may not know about the powder deal they do have a general sense of what is going on. Look at how Killington loses skier visits year after year. This is not like out west where people from outside the country fly out for a week. Most people that ski the north east are from the northeast

 

[millerm277]

While people may not know about the powder deal they do have a general sense of what is going on. Look at how Killington loses skier visits year after year. This is not like out west where people from outside the country fly out for a week. Most people that ski the north east are from the northeast

Actually, Killington in past years has gotten huge numbers of British people coming in to spend a week or two, midweek during the vacation that they all come over during, there are about as many British people as Americans.

 

[Tin Woodsman]

While people may not know about the powder deal they do have a general sense of what is going on. Look at how Killington loses skier visits year after year. This is not like out west where people from outside the country fly out for a week. Most people that ski the north east are from the northeast

One thing that is a big factor at Killington are the share houses. All those 20 and 20 somethings packing the Pickel Barrell and Wobbly Barn aren't home owners in the area or locals. They are mostly full and half share buyers in houses with 10-15 of their friends and peers. But the interesting dynamic is that while many if not most of those people neither know nor care what is going on this summer with prices/season length, they are not the ones who count. The people whos opinions count on this are the hard cores who organize the houses and corral everyone into paying etc... They are the opinion leaders and are undoubtedly following developments closely. If they lose their interest in making the effort to organize a house at K, that can have a multiplier effect amongst their house mates. Mt. Snow and Stratton could be the primary beneficiaries.