Attitash snowmaking - October 6th!

[Highway Star]

From an Attitash email:

Snowmaking System Demo - 10/6-7

THE SNOWMAKING DEMO
This, my friends will be something to see - I can show you pictures, I can show you video of
our guys testing the snowmaking system, but to really appreciate the power, you'll want to
see it for yourself. We're going to light up the guns near the base of Bear Peak for a few minutes during Oktoberfest on Saturday and Sunday, twice each day. It will make you want to ski on the spot...

 

[GrilledSteezeSandwich]

Is it going to be cold enough???

 

[wa-loaf]

Is it going to be cold enough???

Not if these 80's keep up. They'll make nice misters though. :lol:

 

[Vortex]

Sunday River did this last year over the columbus day weekend I believe. Temps look a bit too warm Hope they can though.

 

[snowman]

Super lame post. Blowing water in the air is NOT snowmaking. Hell, I'm currently snowmaking in my backyard if that's the case. :roll:

 

[BushMogulMaster]

They're acting like fan guns make more snow than air/water. Only some do. Those Polecats won't put out any more snow than a Ratnik Snowgiant II, and they cannot operate in marginal temperatures like air/water guns can. But it's a good upgrade to the system in general.

As for testing it on Saturday, nope. They won't make any snow. The high Saturday is 74, and the low is 53. The relative humidity is forecast to be around 50%. Even at 20% RH, the warmest you'll actually get a snow product is 37.4 degrees dry bulb. So I would expect another water testing, not snow.

If the forecast pans out as predicted, Sunday's low is 37 with an RH of 100%. Still no snow. At 100% RH, it has to be 28 degrees to fire the guns up.

 

[Newpylong]

They're acting like fan guns make more snow than air/water. Only some do. Those Polecats won't put out any more snow than a Ratnik Snowgiant II, and they cannot operate in marginal temperatures like air/water guns can. But it's a good upgrade to the system in general.

As for testing it on Saturday, nope. They won't make any snow. The high Saturday is 74, and the low is 53. The relative humidity is forecast to be around 50%. Even at 20% RH, the warmest you'll actually get a snow product is 37.4 degrees dry bulb. So I would expect another water testing, not snow.

If the forecast pans out as predicted, Sunday's low is 37 with an RH of 100%. Still no snow. At 100% RH, it has to be 28 degrees to fire the guns up.

They're acting like that, because they do! There is no better producer of snow, especially in marginal temperatures than fan guns.. why do you think everyone has them near the base of the resorts? As far as I know, a Super Polecat can hold its own as far as general snow production...

 

[millerm277]

They're acting like that, because they do! There is no better producer of snow, especially in marginal temperatures than fan guns.. why do you think everyone has them near the base of the resorts? As far as I know, a Super Polecat can hold its own as far as general snow production...

Given the right temps (aka about 0F)...this is about 4.5 times anything a Super Polecat can do.

Now, on a more realistic level, the Super Polecat is a pretty good gun. However, some of the Ratnik guns flow can do about 50% more water and are much cheaper I believe, and HKD also has a couple guns out that flow the same amount as the Super Polecat.

 

[snowman]

They're acting like that, because they do! There is no better producer of snow, especially in marginal temperatures than fan guns.. why do you think everyone has them near the base of the resorts? As far as I know, a Super Polecat can hold its own as far as general snow production...

ACTUALLY, you can make snow at higher temps with aw mixing chamber guns (not to be confused with low E external mix guns) because you have the ability to dump so much more air into the mix. AW guns make snow at temps as high as 45F with low humidity, HOWEVER, production is dismal at best. The advantage of fan guns is they produce much more snow in marginal temps (20F to 28F - 100% humidity : which is what we end up with in the east more often than not) than any other type of EFFICIENT gun, and that is why you're seeing a lot of them employed around here. Snow production is so dismal with all types of guns above 28F....no one bothers to try and make snow in temps any warmer than that. AW mixing chamber guns WILL however produce snow like there's no tommorow compared to any other type of gun at any temp if you can afford to power them. THAT is why you'll still see one employed here and there in the mix to blead off the extra air in the system if there is some to spare (a good snowmaker takes his compressor output and maximizes it with a mix of guns to use all the available air for maximum efficiency). You also see fan guns employed at the base areas of resorts rather than the peaks because they HAVEN'T RUN POWER LINE up the trail, more so than the temperature difference. Fan guns also lose their competitive efficiency advantage once the temp drops below 20F, as you can start shutting down compressors that charge the system for the Low E external mixing guns. When it drops below 10F you basically don't need to have any compressors left on at all! Below 10F is a pain in the ass though, because you start having freeze ups ect. The absolute best snowmaking temp for maximum production is probably something like 10-14F with low humidity...as beyond that you can't really get any more water out of the guns and the freeze ups start cutting into production.

 

[BushMogulMaster]

ACTUALLY, you can make snow at higher temps with aw mixing chamber guns (not to be confused with low E external mix guns) because you have the ability to dump so much more air into the mix. AW guns make snow at temps as high as 45F with low humidity, HOWEVER, production is dismal at best. The advantage of fan guns is they produce much more snow in marginal temps (20F to 28F - 100% humidity : which is what we end up with in the east more often than not) than any other type of EFFICIENT gun, and that is why you're seeing a lot of them employed around here. Snow production is so dismal with all types of guns above 28F....no one bothers to try and make snow in temps any warmer than that. AW mixing chamber guns WILL however produce snow like there's no tommorow compared to any other type of gun at any temp if you can afford to power them. THAT is why you'll still see one employed here and there in the mix to blead off the extra air in the system if there is some to spare (a good snowmaker takes his compressor output and maximizes it with a mix of guns to use all the available air for maximum efficiency). You also see fan guns employed at the base areas of resorts rather than the peaks because they HAVEN'T RUN POWER LINE up the trail, more so than the temperature difference. Fan guns also lose their competitive efficiency advantage once the temp drops below 20F, as you can start shutting down compressors that charge the system for the Low E external mixing guns. When it drops below 10F you basically don't need to have any compressors left on at all! Below 10F is a pain in the ass though, because you start having freeze ups ect. The absolute best snowmaking temp for maximum production is probably something like 10-14F with low humidity...as beyond that you can't really get any more water out of the guns and the freeze ups start cutting into production.

Thanks for the backup there. Let me just add a few other thoughts. A/W guns make snow better at marginal temps because of a concept called "supercooling." This happens when compressed air is released from the nozzle and it expands significantly. Air coming out of the gun at 48 degrees F can supercool to below 10 degrees, even if the ambient temperature is mid 20s. This allows the water to cool, and assuming there are enough high temp nucleators in the water, it will freeze. Fan guns cannot take advantage of this supercooling. And no, most fan guns won't produce any more snow in marginal temps either. You can usually only open either a couple of nozzles (on large nozzle guns) or one ring (on many-nozzled guns).

 

[BushMogulMaster]

Given the right temps (aka about 0F)...this is about 4.5 times anything a Super Polecat can do.

Now, on a more realistic level, the Super Polecat is a pretty good gun. However, some of the Ratnik guns flow can do about 50% more water and are much cheaper I believe, and HKD also has a couple guns out that flow the same amount as the Super Polecat.

Yeah, the Hedco World Machine spews 850+ gpm in perfect conditions. It's a monster. But it's way too expensive to maintain and operate. There aren't many left.

Here are some cost comparisons:

price range for a/w guns: $300-$2500 each
price range for fan guns: $15,000-$50,000 each

 

[Newpylong]

He just backed up what I said, not you... lol.

 

[BushMogulMaster]

Hmmm... I just reread it, and I still see it backing up my point. A/W guns can operate at higher temps (albeit with low efficiency) and are more efficient in optimal conditions. Am I reading wrong?

Edit: I see what you referred to. He said that fan guns will be more efficient and more productive in marginal temps. Here's the thing: they're more energy efficient in low temps. But they do not make as much snow. As I discussed earlier, supercooling allows A/W guns to produce more snow in marginal temps, at the expense of using lots of electricity to power the compressors constantly.

 

[BushMogulMaster]

Okay, look... in optimal conditions (5-14 wet bulb), the Superpolecat is putting out a max of 137.9gpm at 500psi, while still sucking on 480 to run its onboard compressor and fan, + the power running the water pump. Right beside it, you've got a Rat V putting out 270gpm using just the power running the water pump.

 

[wa-loaf]

Ahh, it must be fall. Nothing like an arguement about snowmaking to stir things up.

Hey, I hear those Yan lifts are pretty sweet . . .:lol:

 

[millerm277]

Okay, look... in optimal conditions (5-14 wet bulb), the Superpolecat is putting out a max of 137.9gpm at 500psi, while still sucking on 480 to run its onboard compressor and fan, + the power running the water pump. Right beside it, you've got a Rat V putting out 270gpm using just the power running the water pump.

I agree but, you do need to remember, that that Ratnik V requires 600psi water to do that.....that is fairly hard to get.

 

[BushMogulMaster]

Ahh, it must be fall. Nothing like an arguement about snowmaking to stir things up.

Hey, I hear those Yan lifts are pretty sweet . . .:lol:

:lol: I need to ski.

I sit through four hours of lecture on snowmaking every week. I'm not just pulling this stuff out of my @ss. Different snowmakers have different theories on when to use what equipment. But there are some fundamental numbers and facts of science that cannot be argued.

 

[BushMogulMaster]

I agree but, you do need to remember, that that Ratnik V requires 600psi water to do that.....that is fairly hard to get.

Not really. Standard snowmaking pumps are capable of 600-1200psi at up to 5000gpm. It all depends on the amount of dynamic head involved, how many lines are charged, how many guns are running, where the on-mountain pumping stations are, where the water source is, size of pipes, and a number of other factors.

 

[Newpylong]

I just want to see any snowmaking, lol.

 

[BushMogulMaster]

I just want to see any snowmaking, lol.

Isn't that the truth! They're making out here, but I haven't had a chance to get up to Loveland or A-Basin to have a look. I feel like I should just pick up and leave right now, just to see some snowmaking!