Attitash snowmaking - October 6th!

[Highway Star]

You would have to be stupid to buy anything else unless you're running a small operation.

Any comments on the low e-guns Killington has been buying? HDK Rangers I think?

 

[BushMogulMaster]

Well....they do work...somewhat...there are just guns that sit lower to the ground that work way better for a similar amount of money (my precious Sky giant II + II). I have no idea why everyone ran out to buy HKD towers. You would think at the expenditure people would shop around and demo all the varieties for a year. I've seen them running side by side and there is no comparison, even on windless days!

Agreed. I wouldn't buy any other Low E gun but the Skygiant II+II.

Why are excavators a familiar site at ski resorts in winter then? The pipes do blow out a lot.

You're missing an important detail. Steel pipes blow out a lot due to rust and electrolysis. This is why new snowmaking systems and current system upgrades are being done with Cast Iron Ductile piping.

The biggest advantage in my mind with fan guns is that you only ever lose one at once though. If your compressor goes out at a mom and pop hill and you only have a 1 month window a year where you can make decent snow it could be season ending. That and the fact your crew can actually repair the fan guns quickly and easily and it doesn't cost the sun, the moon and the stars to keep a stock of parts on hand. If you have a hill that can afford 2 + big compressors, A/W is definately the way to go.

Okay, if we're talking ma and pa hill, yeah... a/w wouldn't make much sense. So I agree with what you're saying here for sure.

Using your argument, fan guns are A/W guns too! It's not like they don't have the compressed air on board! A lot of these pole cat installs run on air from an A/W line system anyway! There ARE 3 very distinct types of snowguns as the Chamber mix and Low E exterrnal mix create snow in a very different manner. The Low E's are actually closer to fan guns than they are chamber mix guns because the fan's and the LOW E's both create snow using the same principals, the fans just have a fan to churn and throw it!

Not exactly. Air/Water describes non-fan type guns that run on solely air and water, either standard or Low E. Yes... you've got internal and external mix. They're all a/w. In fact, there were external mix long before the advent of today's "Low E" guns. Fan guns are fan guns. They operate primarily on water and electricity. Yes, many have onboard compressors or suck off an air line. But they are a completely different animal from the aforementioned technologies. Then there's the Waterstick. That's entirely different because it uses only the self propulsion of water.

 

[BushMogulMaster]

Any comments on the low e-guns Killington has been buying? HDK Rangers I think?

Pretty weak in comparison with the Rat Skygiant II+II. In ideal conditions, the Ranger will do 67gpm with air flow in the 40-100cfm range. At that same air flow, the Skygiant II+II will put out around 136gpm.

 

[tjf67]

Fan guns are much eaisier on the ears. At least from what I hear

 

[BushMogulMaster]

Fan guns are much eaisier on the ears. At least from what I hear

Very true. A/W guns can be deafening. Low E guns are quieter though, and the Waterstick is nearly silent.

 

[snowman]

Pretty weak in comparison with the Rat Skygiant II+II. In ideal conditions, the Ranger will do 67gpm with air flow in the 40-100cfm range. At that same air flow, the Skygiant II+II will put out around 136gpm.

Agreed. The Rangers are the poster child for "pissing in the wind" low output tower guns. You would have to be stupid to buy them. Like all industries, there are paper specs, and then there are real world specs. The 136 gpm on the Ratnick is a very conservative figure. I believe HKD ratings are very liberal. I think the Ratnik will spit maybe 150 gpm once they are worn in and the ranger rating is already a REALLY well worn in rating (bigger nozzle diameter than factory spec). Then you take the fact that 50% of the weak plume that the ranger spits gets taken by the wind and you're down to about 35-40 gpm actually landing on your trail. That lands your real world snow output at about 1/4 a Sky Giant II+II.

 

[snowman]

Very true. A/W guns can be deafening. Low E guns are quieter though, and the Waterstick is nearly silent.

Another reason why fan guns are employed in base areas.

 

[BushMogulMaster]

Another reason why fan guns are employed in base areas.

Definitely. Skiers aren't too happy when they can't even get away from the noise when they step in the lodge for a cup of coffee. High air pressure a/w guns are d@mn noisy. I personally like the sound. But I'm weird like that.

 

[snowman]

Definitely. Skiers aren't too happy when they can't even get away from the noise when they step in the lodge for a cup of coffee. High air pressure a/w guns are d@mn noisy. I personally like the sound. But I'm weird like that.

Me too :-D

 

[BushMogulMaster]

Me too :-D

Well, at least I'm not the only one!

 

[millerm277]

Definitely. Skiers aren't too happy when they can't even get away from the noise when they step in the lodge for a cup of coffee. High air pressure a/w guns are d@mn noisy. I personally like the sound. But I'm weird like that.

So do I, and I love the massive rumbling when the big compressors at Hunter get going (Sort of like a freight train).

 

[BushMogulMaster]

So do I, and I love the massive rumbling when the big compressors at Hunter get going (Sort of like a freight train).

I loved it living at the base of Mt. Ellen. I could hear the compressors and the guns in bed at night. Such a soothing sound

 

[threecy]

Also consider laying pipe: you've gotta run the equipment, pay the operators, pay workers to take care of trench shoring (or pay operators more for sloping),

This is usually done in house, even with mid sized ski areas. Generally someone who can run a cat can run a dozer or a front end loader. Snowmaking pipe installation, other than cost of pipe and other supplies, is generally obsorbed into normal off season payroll. Wire installation, however, cannot be, unless you have linemen and electricians on your payroll.

 

[BushMogulMaster]

This is usually done in house, even with mid sized ski areas. Generally someone who can run a cat can run a dozer or a front end loader. Snowmaking pipe installation, other than cost of pipe and other supplies, is generally obsorbed into normal off season payroll. Wire installation, however, cannot be, unless you have linemen and electricians on your payroll.

Most ski areas can't meet OSHA requirements on their own for trenching. You'll often need at least one outside contractor. Even in house, think about the cost/hour for snowcat operations. It tends to be near $150/hr for man power, fuel, and maintenance costs. Very similar numbers would apply to in house equipment operations.

As for electric, like I said... you've got it with a/w too. 4160 for compressors takes a lot of work, because most established ski areas do not have a 4160v transformer.

Also, many areas have a lift electrician who would be capable of many of the wiring tasks. Certainly not all of them. But enough that it would make a $ difference.

 

[snowman]

Most ski areas can't meet OSHA requirements on their own for trenching. You'll often need at least one outside contractor. Even in house, think about the cost/hour for snowcat operations. It tends to be near $150/hr for man power, fuel, and maintenance costs. Very similar numbers would apply to in house equipment operations.

I laughed when you last mentioned OSHA and trenching in the same breath earlier. There hasn't been a hole dug to OSHA standards in the history of the ski industry. Trenching is done by Billy and Bob running the forth hand dozer and excavator the resort bought for 5K a pop. No permits, no OSHA, no teeth. Again, this is where real world varys from whatever they're teaching you.....like comparing snowguns by their spec sheets. The real world is also still burrying plain old steel pipe.

 

[threecy]

I was referring to an above ground pipeline installation. I'm not a big fan of burried pipelines because they're a pain in the neck when things start to freeze. Unpleasant memories of thawing a hydrant on an underground pipeline. Also, running a crawler or front end loader doesn't cost $150 an hour.

Certainly installing a permanant or rented compressor is expensive - but it is a bit different in that you don't have to bring the electrician up on the hill. Also likely won't need a lineman.

 

[BushMogulMaster]

I laughed when you last mentioned OSHA and trenching in the same breath earlier. There hasn't been a hole dug to OSHA standards in the history of the ski industry. Trenching is done by Billy and Bob running the forth hand dozer and excavator the resort bought for 5K a pop. No permits, no OSHA, no teeth. Again, this is where real world varys from whatever they're teaching you.....like comparing snowguns by their spec sheets. The real world is also still burrying plain old steel pipe.

Actually, that's one of the things they teach us. Even though we always should, no one ever does. So I guess I'm referring to an ideal world, which doesn't exist. Please excuse my informed ignorance (that's a bit of an oxymoron, but oh well).



As for steel pipe... most areas of any significance are moving away from it. In Colorado alone, Beaver Creek, Keystone, Loveland, A-Basin, Copper, Winter Park, and several others have all begun transitioning to Ductile Cast Iron. It's more expensive, but a much better pipe.

 

[prisnah]

Alright, so how do I learn all this? I would love to know this, wet bulb temps, all of that....I can't help that I'm ignorant, I'd love to know, but I'm just too interested in actually skiing it, than learning processes and methodology. But...if I could make a career out of it and it would allow me to ski 80+ days a year...yeah all for it.....but just to reiterate, because you know what you are talking about and using technical terms....I just can't follow.

 

[BushMogulMaster]

Alright, so how do I learn all this? I would love to know this, wet bulb temps, all of that....I can't help that I'm ignorant, I'd love to know, but I'm just too interested in actually skiing it, than learning processes and methodology. But...if I could make a career out of it and it would allow me to ski 80+ days a year...yeah all for it.....but just to reiterate, because you know what you are talking about and using technical terms....I just can't follow.

Well, it's complicated enough that I have a 2 credit 40 hour college course devoted to it. But that's getting really in depth, into history, system design and planning, system construction, compressor and pump maintenance, automation control, efficiency and economics, distribution, density, etc. et. al.

A good place to start might be http://ratnik.com/snowmaking.html. It's Ratnik's Snowmaking 101. Very basic, but it will get you on the right track. The "How Stuff Works" article on it might shed some light as well: http://travel.howstuffworks.com/snow-maker.htm.

 

[millerm277]

Alright, so how do I learn all this? I would love to know this, wet bulb temps, all of that....I can't help that I'm ignorant, I'd love to know, but I'm just too interested in actually skiing it, than learning processes and methodology. But...if I could make a career out of it and it would allow me to ski 80+ days a year...yeah all for it.....but just to reiterate, because you know what you are talking about and using technical terms....I just can't follow.

If you'd like to learn about the concepts behind snowmaking, and how it works....the best way in my opinion is to go to www.snowguns.com
and make your own to experiment with.