Balsams Grand Resort teams up with ski industry legend Les Otten

[2Planker]

Of course. Is there enough to make it work though? And, for those who were at the "old" Balsams, who was their clientele? Where were they from? Are they expected to return?

From NYC, No way.

But he did bring the ski train to Bethel 30 years ago.…
The Boston-Montreal ski train pipe dream could live again.

 

[djd66]

But those of us who live an hour away can still dream.
If he builds it, i know a bunch of folks who would gladly embrace it.

Maybe he’s building it for Granite so he can get away from all the Massholes!

 

[snoseek]

Of course. Is there enough to make it work though? And, for those who were at the "old" Balsams, who was their clientele? Where were they from? Are they expected to return?

The way winters have been and the way they are trending this area sits in that region that gets actual cold and snow. Sure it rains but a ton of those borderline rain events stay frozen up there. On a long enough timeline it sorta makes sense.

 

[thetrailboss]

But he did bring the ski train to Bethel 30 years ago.…
The Boston-Montreal ski train pipe dream could live again.

Yep. There are efforts to revive the Boston-Montreal service right through North Stratford. Most who follow the industry are quite skeptical of this happening, largely because of one failed attempt.

Canadian group eyes revival of Grand Trunk Railroad from Montreal to Boston

The plan calls for stops in Bethel, Auburn, Portland and Old Orchard Beach, but there's no timetable for the project.

www.sunjournal.com

And there is no doubt that Les did an amazing feat with Sunday River with little or nothing really. But there are some key distinctions here. First, he did this as a much younger man and in a completely different lending/business era and environment. He's much older now and getting money is much harder. Second, his strategy and targeted market/demographic is much different. At Sunday River he worked on getting the middle income folks by offering moderately priced properties. He also did a lot of promotions/marketing to get it going. Here, my understanding is that he and his partners are pitching to a much more deep-pocketed clientele with more expensive properties and a location that requires a lot more effort to access. Apples to oranges.

But anything is possible.....

 

[machski]

Of course. Is there enough to make it work though? And, for those who were at the "old" Balsams, who was their clientele? Where were they from? Are they expected to return?

I've said this before, I never thought I'd fly a Gulfstream GV into Berlin, NH. But I did just that with a full plane, a group heading to the Balsams from Philly for a week before it closed in the mid 2000's. If Les does this right, brings back the high end cullinary aspect (that is planned) and the multi-season offerings (also planned as they have already started cleaning up the golf course and plan to tie in ATV stuff too) it very well could work.

 

[x10003q]

I've said this before, I never thought I'd fly a Gulfstream GV into Berlin, NH. But I did just that with a full plane, a group heading to the Balsams from Philly for a week before it closed in the mid 2000's. If Les does this right, brings back the high end cullinary aspect (that is planned) and the multi-season offerings (also planned as they have already started cleaning up the golf course and plan to tie in ATV stuff too) it very well could work.

You have said this before and it still remains absurd to think people who fly private are going to ever matter to The Balsams. If you do have the money to fly private, why would you ever fly to The Balsams? There is nothing compelling about the area or the potential ski terrain. Les needs to sell thousands of housing units to make his dream work and they are not showing up in private jets.

 

[MadPadraic]

Editing to add top-to-bottom FIS (or Black Diamond/Lower FIS) at Mt. Ellen. Yeah it's a slog at the end but you've already skied over 2k vert at that point.

Forget Lower FIS. Take FIS or Black Diamond across the Walts plateau and down the Cliffs, then take NRX and reset with elbow, or take Exterminator to fun things.

 

[snoseek]

When this place was opened before almost everyone that worked there was housed. Alot stayed right in the hotel but there was also a little trailer park tucked away, or that Culinary center to the right of the hotel for the students. Some of the locals drove in to fill jobs for sure but they're gonna need to pull in outsiders to fill these jobs, especially if they want to bring back the culinary side of it. Its a lot of work and a lot of money getting people up there. In my mind thats a real hurdle.

 

[eatskisleep]

You're only really looking at distance. Look at the time. The drive to Jay is WAY easier than Balsam's. It is almost all highway from Boston to Jay. Have you driven Route 3 from Franconia north? It is a decent road but there are slow-downs and it is a two-lane road. Plus, any Boston skier/rider has to drive past Waterville Valley, Loon, Cannon, and Bretton Woods. Burke has the SAME issue and look at how they struggle (and that is a shorter distance and almost all highway as well). So yeah I hate it being NELSAPed, but I also understand the real challenges they face--they're asking folks in Southern New England to literally drive past EVERY other ski area in NNE and that is a very tough sell.

Look at the time in that post. 3 extra minutes to the Balsalms than Jay Peak lol

 

[pinion]

If you do have the money to fly private, why would you ever fly to The Balsams? There is nothing compelling about the area or the potential ski terrain.

They heyday of Mt Snow airfield saw a nice display of private planes and jets before Hermitage bought and sunk it. Sometimes people flying private just want to stick with their community.

Not that I think the Balsam's is a viable project at proposed scale. But stranger things have happened.

 

[hardscrabble]

Forget Lower FIS. Take FIS or Black Diamond across the Walts plateau and down the Cliffs, then take NRX and reset with elbow, or take Exterminator to fun things.

Good point. Or just lap NRX - I don't even care that it's "only" 1,700 vert or so, it's one of the best lifts in the East when it's running smoothly.

 

[cdskier]

Good point. Or just lap NRX - I don't even care that it's "only" 1,700 vert or so, it's one of the best lifts in the East when it's running smoothly.

Of course that last part is the key...

 

[deadheadskier]

Important to remember is the old Balsams never really turned a profit. It broke even only in the best of years. A friend of mine who owns an old classic hotel on the Cape was good friends with Tillotson. He owned the Balsams hotel as a hobby as he loved old, classic hotels. He financed much of the operation with his own money from his fortune made with latex products. Once he died, the family didn't want to keep bleeding their estate to run it.

I think there might be an opportunity to make the ski area work in the winter due to its temperature and snow advantage over the rest of NH and much of New England. The summer operation I question though. Why drive 90 minutes further than the Mt Washington for a very similar experience? Or an hour further than the Mt View? The Mt Washington especially presents a much better location for summertime activities. Yes the Balsams is closer to Canadian population centers, but that's a really unreliable business target with the often poor exchange rate.

It would be great to pull the Balsams off NELSAP and have new ski terrain to check out. I just don't see the opportunity to really be successful. It never was prior.

 

[Newpylong]

The simple answer is the summer activities are not going to be the same as N. Conway. People go there to shop and then tell their friends they went to New Hampshire.

The Balsams will be a true outdoor experience in my mind. Hiking, ATVing, and whatever they manage to get going on the mountain proper.

There is no shortage of flatlanders (from the US or Canada) to do things at these places IMHO.

 

[deadheadskier]

The simple answer is the summer activities are not going to be the same as N. Conway. People go there to shop and then tell their friends they went to New Hampshire.

The Balsams will be a true outdoor experience in my mind. Hiking, ATVing, and whatever they manage to get going on the mountain proper.

There is no shortage of flatlanders (from the US or Canada) to do things at these places IMHO.

You can do all those things basing out of the Mt Washington or Mt View already and have a shorter commute. Maybe there's room for a third such property that people are willing to travel further to, but I'm skeptical.

Again, the prior Balsams was not profitable......ever.

 

[2Planker]

Again, the prior Balsams was not profitable......ever.

They ran it as a hobby. Never intended it to be a profitable business in any way....

 

[deadheadskier]

They ran it as a hobby. Never intended it to be a profitable business in any way....

I already covered that. It's not like they purposely tried to lose money. They simply couldn't make it work due it's location and the competition closer to Boston.

After he died and the family put the property up for sale, Ocean Properties kicked the tires and even with a rock bottom price they determined there wasn't any money to be made there. That company was who brought the Wentworth by the Sea back from the dead. They own the Sagamore on Lake George. The Samoset in Rockport. They own the most amount of lodging and restaurant properties on Mt Dessert Island. They're probably the most successful, privately owned hotel company in the Northeast with a focus on seasonal destination resorts. They walked away.

I trust their business acumen more than Otten.

 

[ThatGuy]

I think you guys just want this to happen so you’re convincing yourself its a good idea/profitable. No way that full build is getting done in the near future (or the next 20+ years).
Also doesn’t the fact the Balsams was previously owned by a millionaire who was bleeding money every year tell you something about its profitability.
I can see Phase 1 happening but beyond that seems like a pipe dream

 

[Newpylong]

Wasn't profitable because they had two slow lifts and only 1,000 vert on a dozen or so trails with no local population to speak of. Who would drive up there for that?

I remain skeptical that someone would ever fund this, but a business analysis of the Balsams of 2010 to what is planned is not overly fair.

 

[deadheadskier]

Wasn't profitable because they had two slow lifts and only 1,000 vert on a dozen or so trails with no local population to speak of. Who would drive up there for that?

I remain skeptical that someone would ever fund this, but a business analysis of the Balsams of 2010 to what is planned is not overly fair.

Okay, let's look at perhaps a better comp. One with similar weather and snow totals to the Balsams, 2K vertical feet, 2 HSQ, brand new slopeside hotel, quite a few condos, maybe the premier MTB destination in New England, closer to the same markets as the Balsams, vastly more population in day trip range. Competitively it's a far more compelling business opportunity. It's for sale and yet, there has been zero publicity about serious buyers.

I'll let you guess where I'm talking about. It's locked and loaded, ready to go. No buyers.

What does the Balsams have that is more attractive other than the historic hotel? (That probably costs a fortune to keep the lights on).

It's not that I don't want it to work. I'd love to see it. The whole thing just seems like a pipedream.