Balsams Grand Resort teams up with ski industry legend Les Otten

[Newpylong]

Still not a good comparison. I am not sure there even is a valid one to be had outside of perhaps Sunday River when it was being built out.

What you see is what you get with Burke and it is in Vermont AND in a State Park. All 3 limit growth opportunities by themselves. Combined? Who would touch it if they wanted to build something like Les does? Getting enough water alone is a showstopper.

FWIW I think it's a pipe dream too, but for different reasons.

 

[MadPadraic]

Yep. There are efforts to revive the Boston-Montreal service right through North Stratford. Most who follow the industry are quite skeptical of this happening, largely because of one failed attempt.

I'd absolutely love a train from Boston to Montreal. but this proposal is absurd. 14 hours to get between two cities that you can drive between in 5, and just one run a day?

The route should basically be North Station -> potentially a Boston suburb with massive parking build out ( a northern version of the route 128 station) -> Montreal. I can see stops at some strict subset of Manchester/Concord, Lebanon/WRJ, Montpelier/Waterbury, or Burlington, but every single intermediate stop makes the train slower and less attractive to the core rider group. Additionally, the train would need to be meaningfully faster than a bus and close to comparable to an airplane when you factor in the additional hassle of airports.

 

[Newpylong]

I'd absolutely love a train from Boston to Montreal. but this proposal is absurd. 14 hours to get between two cities that you can drive between in 5, and just one run a day?

The route should basically be North Station -> potentially a Boston suburb with massive parking build out ( a northern version of the route 128 station) -> Montreal. I can see stops at some strict subset of Manchester/Concord, Lebanon/WRJ, Montpelier/Waterbury, or Burlington, but every single intermediate stop makes the train slower and less attractive to the core rider group. Additionally, the train would need to be meaningfully faster than a bus and close to comparable to an airplane when you factor in the additional hassle of airports.

The problem is none of the aforementioned towns/cities you listed have direct rail connectivity to Boston any longer. The Northern RR (Concord to WRJ) was removed decades ago. While it is owned by NHDOT and railbanked, no one is going to pay to put it all back in at the speeds required for passenger service.

As it stands today to get to Montreal from Boston you'd have to go west to Springfield (South Station) or Greenfield (North Station) then go north up to WRJ and beyond.

Or, north out of Boston up to Auburn/Danville, ME, then across the North Country of NH/VT to Canada. This was the route of the old Bethel ski trains.

Both options suck.

 

[MadPadraic]

None of the aforementioned towns/cities you listed have direct rail connectivity to Boston any longer. The Northern RR (Concord to WRJ) was removed decades ago. While it is owned by NHDOT and railbanked, no one is going to pay to put it all back in at the speeds required for passenger service.

As it stands today to get to Montreal from Boston you'd have to go west to Springfield (South Station) or Greenfield (North Station) then go north up to WRJ and beyond.

Or, north out of Boston up to Auburn/Danville, ME, then across the North Country of NH/VT to Canada. This was the route of the old Bethel ski trains.

Both options suck.

My point was not to advocate for those intermediate stops (honestly, Burlington is the only one that I think makes sense, though selfishly i'd love Waterbury), but rather to emphasize that a Boston to Montreal train's utility is connecting those two cities rather than all the communities in between.

To go even further off topic: I've long said that if nearly any (*) NE ski town had direct rail service from Boston we'd buy a condo there. As it turns out, there is hardly even any bus service to most ski towns.

(*) Not WaWa.

 

[Razor]

I was a college fraternity brother of one of the Tillotsons. He took us up there senior year for a crazy weekend. I didn't ski then, but we did some snowmobiling on trails out behind the hotel along with drinking plenty of cold ones. Several years later when camping with our kids, we took a day trip up there. Tilly took our two young sons on a tour of the rubber factory out back, ,showing them how the fancy balloons were made and gave them some free samples. The kids were ecstatic and still remember it today, some 40 years later. People forget that the factory was there and employed many locals. I think they shut the factory down and moved some of their operations to Fall River. I could be wrong. But the point is that more was there than just the hotel. The ski area wasn't that big a deal. The golf course was a bigger attraction.

 

[snoseek]

I was a college fraternity brother of one of the Tillotsons. He took us up there senior year for a crazy weekend. I didn't ski then, but we did some snowmobiling on trails out behind the hotel along with drinking plenty of cold ones. Several years later when camping with our kids, we took a day trip up there. Tilly took our two young sons on a tour of the rubber factory out back, ,showing them how the fancy balloons were made and gave them some free samples. The kids were ecstatic and still remember it today, some 40 years later. People forget that the factory was there and employed many locals. I think they shut the factory down and moved some of their operations to Fall River. I could be wrong. But the point is that more was there than just the hotel. The ski area wasn't that big a deal. The golf course was a bigger attraction.

Man that rubber factory on a hot day in the summer was just weird.

There's a ton to do in that area without needing to drive. They need to further develop mtb trails and stuff like that to make it work. Golf course was beautiful. They would need to really lean into the week long no drive vacation thing but I don't know if there's a market for that.

 

[x10003q]

They heyday of Mt Snow airfield saw a nice display of private planes and jets before Hermitage bought and sunk it. Sometimes people flying private just want to stick with their community.

Not that I think the Balsam's is a viable project at proposed scale. But stranger things have happened.

Even if we suspend disbelief and say 100 jets are going to show up in Berlin, NH, ( the airport is 45 minutes from The Balsams) every Friday for the weekend and say there are 2 unit owners/jet, that is only 200 units. That is never going to move the needle for Les.

Les needs many weekend warriors in SUVs to buy those 2500 units.

 

[2Planker]

I was a college fraternity brother of one of the Tillotsons. He took us up there senior year for a crazy weekend. I didn't ski then, but we did some snowmobiling on trails out behind the hotel along with drinking plenty of cold ones. Several years later when camping with our kids, we took a day trip up there. Tilly took our two young sons on a tour of the rubber factory out back, ,showing them how the fancy balloons were made and gave them some free samples. The kids were ecstatic and still remember it today, some 40 years later. People forget that the factory was there and employed many locals. I think they shut the factory down and moved some of their operations to Fall River. I could be wrong. But the point is that more was there than just the hotel. The ski area wasn't that big a deal. The golf course was a bigger attraction.

Did you go to school w/ Rick ? I had worked w/ him on an intercollegiate engineering project in the early 80's
The Balsams Buffet was always way more crowded than the golf course on weekends in the 90's when we used to go for Brunch & Golf

 

[MadPadraic]

Even if we suspend disbelief and say 100 jets are going to show up in Berlin, NH, ( the airport is 45 minutes from The Balsams) every Friday for the weekend and say there are 2 unit owners/jet, that is only 200 units. That is never going to move the needle for Les.

Les needs many weekend warriors in SUVs to buy those 2500 units.

Why not sedans or wagons?

 

[Razor]

Did you go to school w/ Rick ? I had worked w/ him on an intercollegiate engineering project in the early 80's
The Balsams Buffet was always way more crowded than the golf course on weekends in the 90's when we used to go for Brunch & Golf

Yep.

 

[AdironRider]

I think you all are underestimating the summer draw. That golf course was sweet and has a big name historical designer behind it.

Also, if you have spent any time in Moab UT, which is just as remote as the Balsams and is freaking mobbed every weekend day of the year with expensive toys you might just be underestimating what kind of draw the ATV/snowmobile stuff can be. Pretty much everywhere south of there is becoming useless for snowmobiling with any form of regularity in most years. Those toys are not cheap either at 15k+ a pop, plus trailer, plus tow rig. Those dudes are rolling down the highway in 100k+ all in rigs and buying a condo at the Balsams isn't a stretch for them. Not having to deal with federal agencies can really juice the ATV summer side of things as well.

None of that is getting done at the Mt Washington hotel, which in case you haven't been there recently, is very much past its prime, along with the rest of Twin Mountain.

I also think most of you are poo pahhhing Les, who ultimately has done more ski resort development than anyone else alive at this point. Lets not forget he still developed multiple massive ski areas from basically nothing. Canyons, Sunday River, and the rest. Name another guy who has pulled that off more recently. You can't. ASC also went belly up the same time as the entire housing market. There were definitely some external factors not related to ASC in play there.

That all said, it is pretty reliant on a decent build out. Sounds like the county has bought in. There are no public land issues really to speak of which would limit the snowmobile/atv issues. They got a shot, albeit a long one.

 

[thetrailboss]

I'd absolutely love a train from Boston to Montreal. but this proposal is absurd. 14 hours to get between two cities that you can drive between in 5, and just one run a day?

The route should basically be North Station -> potentially a Boston suburb with massive parking build out ( a northern version of the route 128 station) -> Montreal. I can see stops at some strict subset of Manchester/Concord, Lebanon/WRJ, Montpelier/Waterbury, or Burlington, but every single intermediate stop makes the train slower and less attractive to the core rider group. Additionally, the train would need to be meaningfully faster than a bus and close to comparable to an airplane when you factor in the additional hassle of airports.

Yes, but.....the line from Manchester up through Concord and over to WRJ is long gone. This proposal was BOS-OOB-Portland-Bethel-Berlin, NH-Island Pond-Montreal.

 

[MadPadraic]

Yes, but.....the line from Manchester up through Concord and over to WRJ is long gone. This proposal was BOS-OOB-Portland-Bethel-Berlin, NH-Island Pond-Montreal.

I'm not sure what we are arguing here. My point is that the proposal is terrible because it is trying to do too many things.

I'd love (and use) a sensible train to Montreal, but realistically it would require new tracks capable of supporting much higher speeds than we typically deploy in North America.

Related side note: one day I hung out in the Waterbury train station while my snow tires were being mounted. Great coffeeshop, and i was pleasantly surprised by the number of people that used the train that morning.

 

[Smellytele]

Yes, but.....the line from Manchester up through Concord and over to WRJ is long gone. This proposal was BOS-OOB-Portland-Bethel-Berlin, NH-Island Pond-Montreal.

Actually the tracks still run between Manchester and concord as the coal train runs to Bow. Not sure they are passenger ready though.

 

[ThatGuy]

Also, if you have spent any time in Moab UT, which is just as remote as the Balsams and is freaking mobbed every weekend day of the year with expensive toys you might just be underestimating what kind of draw the ATV/snowmobile stuff can be.

Comparing an actual Nation Park (one of the countries most unique) with the Balsams is a stretch…

 

[MadPadraic]

Actually the tracks still run between Manchester and concord as the coal train runs to Bow. Not sure they are passenger ready though.

It's all a bit moot: passenger ready isn't enough; they would have to upgrade it/lay new rail for much higher speeds. Anyway, something like this would need federal funding, and that is currently pretty unlikely.

 

[MadPadraic]

Important to remember is the old Balsams never really turned a profit. It broke even only in the best of years. A friend of mine who owns an old classic hotel on the Cape was good friends with Tillotson. He owned the Balsams hotel as a hobby as he loved old, classic hotels. He financed much of the operation with his own money from his fortune made with latex products. Once he died, the family didn't want to keep bleeding their estate to run it.

I think there might be an opportunity to make the ski area work in the winter due to its temperature and snow advantage over the rest of NH and much of New England. The summer operation I question though. Why drive 90 minutes further than the Mt Washington for a very similar experience? Or an hour further than the Mt View? The Mt Washington especially presents a much better location for summertime activities. Yes the Balsams is closer to Canadian population centers, but that's a really unreliable business target with the often poor exchange rate.

It would be great to pull the Balsams off NELSAP and have new ski terrain to check out. I just don't see the opportunity to really be successful. It never was prior.

If they do it well enough there will be a market. The same way that SL, Jay, Stowe, and Smuggs all have markets despite being far away from MLB stadiums. Each has something to offer/differentiate them enough to draw big crowds. People drive past perfectly good resorts (lots of people drive past perfectly good ski areas for all of these). BW also apparently has something to offer, so tastes and travel tolerances differ. I take Jay's sale price ($76 million) and Stowe charging for parking as indications that the market isn't yet saturated.

 

[Smellytele]

It's all a bit moot: passenger ready isn't enough; they would have to upgrade it/lay new rail for much higher speeds. Anyway, something like this would need federal funding, and that is currently pretty unlikely.

They are talking about commuter train service to Manchester/ Nashua and maybe concord. Not that it will happen but that is the talk

 

[MadPadraic]

They are talking about commuter train service to Manchester/ Nashua and maybe concord. Not that it will happen but that is the talk

Would this be an MBTA thing? Amtrak, or some totally different entity?

 

[Smellytele]

Would this be an MBTA thing? Amtrak, or some totally different entity?

Seeing it is in NH doubt mbta but it would connect to it.