Belleayre and NYS Budget Cuts

[RENO]

Dude.... I KNOW!!!!! What the hell is wrong with you people... really....

I DO NOT WANT BELLEAYRE TO CLOSE

I can't believe you want Belleayre to close! What's wrong with you!



:razz: :wink:

 

[edgeworker]

Well, I`m not ready to push the panic button just yet. Hopefully this will get sorted out before the season starts. I have been a pass holder for the past 6 years or so and can`t see the DEC closing the mountain. I also have always had a midweek pass at Hunter for all the known reasons. I definitely perfer Belleayre on the weekends (or Plattekill if they`ve got the goods). And then there`s Highmount.
If it does all go in the toilet then you will find me at Mad River Glen on the weekends - hell, I`ll be there alot of the weekends anyways.
So get your hands off the panic button and write the DEC.

 

[thinnmann]

Meeting at Belleayre on Saturday to Support Belleayre

Just received this email from Belleayre Mountain Racing Association:

paste---->>>>

We urge all of our members, their friends, skiers/snowboarders/snowshoers, non-skiers/non-snowboarders and those who support the economic viability of this Catskill region to attend a meeting this Saturday.

Where: Belleayre Mt., Lower Lodge

When: Saturday, September 13

Time: 9 a.m.

Who is Welcome: EVERYONE!!!! NUMBERS CAN HELP MAKE A DIFFERENCE. THE PRESS WILL BE THERE. PLEASE COME SHOW YOUR SUPPORT FOR OUR MOUNTAIN.

Whether you can make the meeting or not, people who either ski at Belleayre or who support Belleayre and the region are urged to e-mail, write or call their representatives:

DEC: www.dec.ny.gov/about/407.html and e-mail Pete Granis DEC Commissioner (there seems to be some technical trouble with their email)

Governor: www.ny.gov/governor/index.html and go to the governor’s e-mail

Senator John J Bonacic-bonacic@senate.state.ny.us
Assembly Member Kevin Cahill
Governor Clinton Bldg Suite G-4
1 Albany Ave.
Kingston NY 12401 845 338 9610

Congress Member Maurice Hinchey
291 Wall street
Kingston, NY 12401
845 331 4466

Assembly member Clifford Crouch
1 Kattelville Road Suite 1
Binghamton, NY 13901
607 648 6080

Congress member Kirsten Gillibrand
111 Main Street
Charles Cook County Bldg
Delhi NY 13753
607 746 8449​

 

[Richard Ellis]

Thank you Thin Man. I was just about to post that letter.

Whether you go to the meeting or not, I urge everyone to contact their elected and unelected representatives.

The New York State Legislature has two houses. The first is the Senate. You can search for your senator by entering your zip code in the form here.

The second is the Assembly. Find yours here.

Make a phone call to them. It is far more effective than sending an email. It is one thing to hear you have 193 emails and quite another to hear your staff has spent the entire day fielding calls from constituents concerned about Belleayre.

Do not forget to include the Governor Patterson. His phone number is 518-474-8390. His staff will only take your zip code and a one word statement of your "position", support or oppose. It will not be double dipping to also send him an email. You can do that by filling out the form here.

The letter above tells you how to contact the DEC.

I look forward to seeing everyone at Belleayre on opening day.

Richard Ellis

 

[hardline]

ok so i have put a bunch of thought into this.

1. in order for windam/hunter to make any sort of claims they need to disclose their numbers.

2 bell's numbers need to be disclosed.

3. all of what i have scene is complete conjecture.

4. if bellaerye closes. it will for a fact bring some sort of economic damage to the area.

5. if bellaerye closes the people that make the trip from NJ and PA will stay at there local mountains or those that have the money will just go north.

6. it hate seeing things like this played out in the court of public opinion. there is not enough raw data to suport any side. which is one of the reasons hunter windam hired lobbists. facts, facts facts,

 

[dmc]

ok so i have put a bunch of thought into this.

1. in order for windam/hunter to make any sort of claims they need to disclose their numbers.

2 bell's numbers need to be disclosed.

3. all of what i have scene is complete conjecture.

4. if bellaerye closes. it will for a fact bring some sort of economic damage to the area.

5. if bellaerye closes the people that make the trip from NJ and PA will stay at there local mountains or those that have the money will just go north.

6. it hate seeing things like this played out in the court of public opinion. there is not enough raw data to suport any side. which is one of the reasons hunter windam hired lobbists. facts, facts facts,

There are tons of facts surrounding this...

http://www.nytaxpayers4equality.org/facts_inherent_savings.html
http://coalitiontosavebelleayre.org/whats-new.php
http://www.taxfoundation.org/press/show/1369.html
http://www.greencatskills.com/belleayre-mountains-unfair-advantage
http://www.wickedlocal.com/mpnnow/towns/bristol/x170774947
http://www.dailyfreeman.com/site/index.cfm?BRD=1769&PAG=461&dept_id=74969&newsid=19435235&rfi=8

 

[hardline]

There are tons of facts surrounding this...

http://www.nytaxpayers4equality.org/facts_inherent_savings.html
http://coalitiontosavebelleayre.org/whats-new.php
http://www.taxfoundation.org/press/show/1369.html
http://www.greencatskills.com/belleayre-mountains-unfair-advantage
http://www.wickedlocal.com/mpnnow/towns/bristol/x170774947
http://www.dailyfreeman.com/site/index.cfm?BRD=1769&PAG=461&dept_id=74969&newsid=19435235&rfi=8

those are all put out by interested parties. i talking actual financials. which is going to hard since windam and hunter are privatly held.

 

[millerm277]

those are all put out by interested parties. i talking actual financials. which is going to hard since windam and hunter are privatly held.

That is true.

I personally stand on Hunter/Windham/Plattekill's side of the argument, and I do think that if Belleayre is recieving significant subsidization (as has been claimed), that should be ended.

If Belleayre is profitable on it's own (without subsidization), then I can't argue much with anything they do.
If NYS wants to run Belleayre as a bare-bones operation to allow all income levels access to ski, I understand.

If NYS wants to make Belleayre into a high-end resort, and it doesn't make money...that would seem like an irresponsible thing to do with taxpayers money, and it would be hurting the private businesses in the same space.

(I do not live in NYS.)

 

[evantrentful]

Ok I keep seeing these articles complaining about Belleayre blowing snow late in the season and how irresponsible that is. I agree, normal logic says it stupid, but consider that throughout the season belleayre is probably capable at best of blowing 50% the amount of snow that Hunter/Windam can blow. I back this up by noting that even on the best of nights/days for snowmaking Belleayre will only have at 40-50% of the trails under snowmaking ability, while Hunter and Windham have a good 70-80%(conservatively) of their mountains being dumped on (a point which they like to boast on their websites). So all said Belleayre's budget wasted on snowmaking cant even to compare to the other two... and in a way they suffer for it... but that allows them to dump alittle later... and potenitally close alittle later...giving them something that might drive customers to them.

Again, if fare comparisons were going to be made, then belleayre would have multimillion dollar lodges...they dont.... world class snowmaking....they dont....nicer lifts...(minus superchief)... they dont. they barely have anything that rivals the other two, as shown in their attendance numbers. So its responsible to expect them to compete on price. If all the things listed above were equal then I would say its completely unfair having belleayre subsidized. But they arent, they are a state run facility that provides a good atomosphere for everyone to enjoy and I if I have to piss my tax dollars away on something then let it be that than all the other waste new york passes out.

I want to say just quick, that I do not support the Belleayre Resort project. THAT would be truly unfair

 

[dmc]

those are all put out by interested parties. i talking actual financials. which is going to hard since windam and hunter are privatly held.

Aren't corporate tax returns public domain?

 

[dmc]

Again, if fare comparisons were going to be made, then belleayre would have multimillion dollar lodges...they dont.... world class snowmaking....they dont....nicer lifts...(minus superchief)... they dont. they barely have anything that rivals the other two, as shown in their attendance numbers. So its responsible to expect them to compete on price. If all the things listed above were equal then I would say its completely unfair having belleayre subsidized. But they arent, they are a state run facility that provides a good atomosphere for everyone to enjoy and I if I have to piss my tax dollars away on something then let it be that than all the other waste new york passes out.

I want to say just quick, that I do not support the Belleayre Resort project. THAT would be truly unfair

Bellearye has 2 quads... Just like Hunter...
Hunter has an old outdated lodge... Like Belleayre..

But whats not equal is operation costs that are subsidized by NYS...

 

[hardline]

Bellearye has 2 quads... Just like Hunter...
Hunter has an old outdated lodge... Like Belleayre..

But whats not equal is operation costs that are subsidized by NYS...

i know that you have access to more info than i do.

is there any hunter or windam financial info that has been released to the public? i would imagine it pretty easy to get ahold of bells info. i would love to do a side by side comparision. then factor in the breaks that bell gets.

 

[dmc]

i know that you have access to more info than i do.

is there any hunter or windam financial info that has been released to the public? i would imagine it pretty easy to get ahold of bells info. i would love to do a side by side comparision. then factor in the breaks that bell gets.

No I just live there..
And know how to use google..

 

[jamesdeluxe]

is there any hunter or windam financial info that has been released to the public? i would imagine it pretty easy to get ahold of bells info. i would love to do a side by side comparision. then factor in the breaks that bell gets.

If you can find Hunter and Windham's numbers, you're a better internet sleuth than me.

 

[hardline]

No I just live there..
And know how to use google..

i know but most of the info on the web is not real numbers. it is put out by the different groups on either side. i can't really make an educated decision with the info out there.

 

[catskills]

Ok I keep seeing these articles complaining about Belleayre blowing snow late in the season and how irresponsible that is. I agree, normal logic says it stupid, but consider that throughout the season belleayre is probably capable at best of blowing 50% the amount of snow that Hunter/Windam can blow. I back this up by noting that even on the best of nights/days for snowmaking Belleayre will only have at 40-50% of the trails under snowmaking ability, while Hunter and Windham have a good 70-80%(conservatively) of their mountains being dumped on (a point which they like to boast on their websites). So all said Belleayre's budget wasted on snowmaking cant even to compare to the other two... and in a way they suffer for it... but that allows them to dump alittle later... and potenitally close alittle later...giving them something that might drive customers to them.

Again, if fare comparisons were going to be made, then belleayre would have multimillion dollar lodges...they dont.... world class snowmaking....they dont....nicer lifts...(minus superchief)... they dont. they barely have anything that rivals the other two, as shown in their attendance numbers. So its responsible to expect them to compete on price. If all the things listed above were equal then I would say its completely unfair having belleayre subsidized. But they arent, they are a state run facility that provides a good atomosphere for everyone to enjoy and I if I have to piss my tax dollars away on something then let it be that than all the other waste new york passes out.

All good points. Hunter and Windham have yet to release any data. We don't even know year to year Hunter and Windham skier visits. For all we know, Hunter and Windham skier visits have doubled.

I have noticed that the lifties and snowmakers at Belleayre wear a lot more BLING than the same employees at Hunter and Windham. :wink: So this must be what all the complaining is about. :argue:

Given no change in trail acreage, how many more weekend skier visits could Hunter and Windham truly increase? 10 percent at best. I mean how many can you pack in there with a shoe horn on weekends. Its not like Belleayre gets a huge midweek crowd that would hurt Hunter and Windham.

Look lets be honest. This is all about real estate sales and nothing to do with a state run ski area selling ski tickets. Give me a break. Whatever the Greene county real estate investors paid those lobbyists, they earned every penny.

 

[jamesdeluxe]

Given no change in trail acreage, how many more weekend skier visits could Hunter and Windham truly increase? 10 percent at best. I mean how many can you pack in there with a shoe horn on weekends. Its not like Belleayre gets a huge midweek crowd that would hurt Hunter and Windham.

Look lets be honest. This is all about real estate sales and nothing to do with a state run ski area selling ski tickets. Give me a break. Whatever the Greene county real estate investors paid those lobbyists, they earned every penny.

Unless someone provides really convincing contrary evidence, that ^^ is the story in a nutshell.

The lobbyists were allegedly paid in the $180K range.

 

[skidbump]

Belleayre backers fear cutbacks or shutdown
By Jay Braman Jr., Correspondent
09/11/2008
Email to a friendPost a CommentPrinter-friendly
HIGHMOUNT - Efforts have begun to halt what appears to be a plan by the state Department of Environmental Conservation to sharply reduce the operating budget for the Belleayre Mountain Ski Center, which is run by the DEC.
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Action began on Monday, the same day town of Shandaken officials learned that state budget cuts could result in the ski center - which is in the town and crucial to the local economy - having a much shorter season than usual in 2008-09 or perhaps not opening at all.

That night, the Town Board unanimously approved a resolution to call for help.

"Shandaken strongly urges the following entities to take issue with these cuts, as it could dramatically damage employment rates, lodging business, retail business and the number of visitors to the town and its tourism-based economic needs," the resolution states.

The resolution - which was sent to Gov. David Paterson, the state Senate and Assembly, the Ulster County Legislature, the DEC and others - calls for the rescinding of any recent or planned cuts at Belleayre, including the popular Oktoberfest, a Columbus Day staple that has been canceled for this year.

Joe Kelly, of the Coalition of Watershed Towns, said the Oktoberfest typically draws 16,000 people.

In calling for help, Shandaken Supervisor Peter DiSclafani noted that Belleayre "was created under a constitutional amendment to help enhance recreational opportunities for the general public as well as provide a boost to an otherwise economically depressed area ... during difficult winter seasons."

Kelly said the Coalition of Watershed Towns has called an emergency meeting to review Belleayre budget issues and develop a strategy for addressing them.

"We had buses in Albany in March, and we might need to get them up there again in October," he said. "At this point, we need to talk with others in the region and figure out a plan of attack. But this I can say for sure: We've been fighting for this ski center for more than a quarter of a century and, except in 1984, when (then-Gov.) Mario Cuomo tried to close it, this is as bad as it gets. We will not sit back quietly and let the state and the DEC make up their budget crisis on our backs."

State Sen. John Bonacic said the DEC's plan for Belleayre is unclear.

"I have asked the DEC about any contemplated reductions in state funding for Belleayre," said Bonacic, R-Mount Hope. "They tell me no determination has been made."

Bonacic, long an advocate for Belleayre, has regularly appeared at the ski center in the early fall to announce funding for improvements, but no such announcement is expected this year.

Bonacic does, however, expect money that he already has secured for Belleayre to stay at the facility.

"Given the approximately $20 million I have successfully fought to provide Belleayre for various improvements over the last eight years, it is important that Belleayre have the ability to utilize that funding to follow through, complete those projects and continue to be the success it is," the senator said.

Ulster County Legislator Brian Shapiro, a Woodstock Democrat who represents Shandaken, called the possible cuts "outrageous" and vowed to assemble a lobbying group to fight them.




©Daily Freeman 2008

 

[skidbump]

Aren't corporate tax returns public domain?

Publicly traded corps publish all their numbers for stock holders ,private do not.I believe Municipalities are accessible by filling a FOIL request to the state.

Belleayre skier counts are open books,hunter and Windham's at this point are here say.Any profit or losses at this point are here say.

 

[ed-drum]

I spoke to the people who are connected to Belleayre and there is no definitive answer yet. "Everything is still up in the air". Dean Gitter the proponent of the resort at Belleayre is suing Paul Smart of the Woodstock Times for an article the paper published saying that Gitter bribed the DEC to give the go ahead for the resort. (Resort means the condos and golf course.) What as mess. I might go to the meeting on Saturday at Belleayre because I have to pass by the area to fix a car. This whole issue, whatever the outcome is going to be an economic disaster, for "low paying jobs" are better than no jobs.