• Welcome to AlpineZone, the largest online community of skiers and snowboarders in the Northeast!

    You may have to REGISTER before you can post. Registering is FREE, gets rid of the majority of advertisements, and lets you participate in giveaways and other AlpineZone events!

Boot Flex

Siliconebobsquarepants

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 14, 2013
Messages
2,683
Points
48
Location
Lehigh County Pa.
Website
www.youtube.com
Cabrio (3 buckle) shells are popular among bump skiers for their progressive flex. They're also a lot easier to get on and off. Overlapping (4 buckle) shells are probably better for carving, where torsional rigidity is an important factor.

That's interesting . My one buddy is a devoted mogul skier I never took notice before of his boots . I've noticed he favors short poles .

My boots fit rather tightly and if I don't get my heel back first I have to fiddle later on , buckling #3 ...from the bottom first. Whatever works for you .
 

big_vert

Member
Joined
Jul 22, 2007
Messages
175
Points
16
OK, plenty of good (and bad) info here, so let's start over.

1) Do you know what your forefoot measurement is?
2) What's the height of your instep?
3) exact length of (both) feet?
4) total foot height?
And a dozen more things. If the answer is "no" to ANY then you have no good reason for buying boots on the interweb. None.

You don't seemingly even know that the flex numbers among manufacturers has exactly zero commonality, so maybe you buying a 100 in one brand and 120 in another. Do you know which is what?

The last pair of least coast procured boots I had fit like crap (from a "respected" CT shop). I went to Fanatyco at Whistler and the guy looked at my feet, then at the boots and said "great boots, but not for your feet". He refused to do any mods or sell me any boots saying he didn't have what I needed, and to come back in November - which I did. First pair of great fitting boots I ever had. WOW - what a difference!

First - go to a real shop - since they'll make adjustments at no charge for what they sell you versus $50/punch. Usually, after a thorough analysis of your foot they'll bring out a couple of pairs to try on. Last winter I went to Sportsden in SLC. Once the machine lasered my feet, there were numbers and considerations I'd never seen before, and NICE was the boot he brought out in response.

Second, get good footbeds, I used to favor going right more than left - now, no preference. Yes, a decent pair is $125-$150 - suck it up and do it.

Third, good socks - yeah - $20, 25 per pair. And they should be THIN. Seeing as you're trying to cheap out everything you probably won't listen, but they're imperative

Fourth - do NOT go to Surefoot. Their process ends up with COLD boots that limited amount can be done with the liners apart from sticking pads on the liners, that end up looking like the boot equivalent of a latino rice rocket.

Fifth It's all about the shell sizing and the liner. Get the best shell you can, then get some Intuition liners. Warm, form fitting and one of the best liners available. You will NEVER regret what you spend on an Intuition

If you're going to cheap it out, then fine, get some second hand rental boots and you can look with pride at some ill-fitting contraptions that you got cheap.. If you want something that's really going to work, spend some money. They should last 10 years, so what's you're real cost?
 

dblskifanatic

Member
Joined
May 24, 2019
Messages
294
Points
18
OK, plenty of good (and bad) info here, so let's start over.

1) Do you know what your forefoot measurement is?
2) What's the height of your instep?
3) exact length of (both) feet?
4) total foot height?
And a dozen more things. If the answer is "no" to ANY then you have no good reason for buying boots on the interweb. None.

You don't seemingly even know that the flex numbers among manufacturers has exactly zero commonality, so maybe you buying a 100 in one brand and 120 in another. Do you know which is what?

The last pair of least coast procured boots I had fit like crap (from a "respected" CT shop). I went to Fanatyco at Whistler and the guy looked at my feet, then at the boots and said "great boots, but not for your feet". He refused to do any mods or sell me any boots saying he didn't have what I needed, and to come back in November - which I did. First pair of great fitting boots I ever had. WOW - what a difference!

First - go to a real shop - since they'll make adjustments at no charge for what they sell you versus $50/punch. Usually, after a thorough analysis of your foot they'll bring out a couple of pairs to try on. Last winter I went to Sportsden in SLC. Once the machine lasered my feet, there were numbers and considerations I'd never seen before, and NICE was the boot he brought out in response.

Second, get good footbeds, I used to favor going right more than left - now, no preference. Yes, a decent pair is $125-$150 - suck it up and do it.

Third, good socks - yeah - $20, 25 per pair. And they should be THIN. Seeing as you're trying to cheap out everything you probably won't listen, but they're imperative

Fourth - do NOT go to Surefoot. Their process ends up with COLD boots that limited amount can be done with the liners apart from sticking pads on the liners, that end up looking like the boot equivalent of a latino rice rocket.

Fifth It's all about the shell sizing and the liner. Get the best shell you can, then get some Intuition liners. Warm, form fitting and one of the best liners available. You will NEVER regret what you spend on an Intuition

If you're going to cheap it out, then fine, get some second hand rental boots and you can look with pride at some ill-fitting contraptions that you got cheap.. If you want something that's really going to work, spend some money. They should last 10 years, so what's you're real cost?

I have never had a ski shop measure any of those measurements. Ski boots are not designed on that premise. If you have foot problems get an insole designed. I have never had to have a boot punched out and I bet most on here have not. Is the boot being punched out because you got the wrong last?

Going online to pay $200-300 less than a boot from shop is not cheaping out! I just bought the boot below online in March and last year I saw them in a ski shop for over $500 and I bought them for $250 (new). Got them a week later and walked around the house with them on and they feel wonderful. I will ski with them this Saturday and they will feel good then too.


https://www.evo.com/outlet/alpine-ski-boots/dalbello-panterra-120-id#image=140447/613272/



Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone
 
Last edited:

deadheadskier

Moderator
Staff member
Moderator
Joined
Mar 6, 2005
Messages
25,727
Points
48
Location
Southeast NH
Getting boots punched out doesn't mean you got the wrong Last. Last is a measurement at only one point and everyone's feet taper differently. Boot brands and models within the same brand taper differently too. Custom insoles only go so far. Any great bootfitter would tell you the same.

All of those measurements he described are indeed important. There's much more to ski boots than BSL, Last and Flex. Pretty cool that they can do those measurements with lasers now. Richelson does it all by hand. Paul fits several pro skiers. They all drop down 2, sometimes 3 sizes and get the problem areas punched out.

I dropped down 2 sizes with my current boots and needed a few problem areas punched out. They fit way better than any previous boots dropping one size down where I'd have to crank down the second buckle after minimal use. Now I barely have to buckle 1&2 at all and most of the securement comes from buckles 3&4.

Some skiers have more wonky feet than others and they simply require the additional fine tuning to get the performance they want.

Sent from my XT1635-01 using AlpineZone mobile app
 

BenedictGomez

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 26, 2011
Messages
10,765
Points
48
Location
PRNJ
This thread is really getting oft-ridiculous.

1) The guy in question literally stated he skis 10 days per year. He doesn't need custom made liners & eleventy-million dollar boots from space materials tweaked by an ex boot fitter for the Austrian National Alpine team.

2) Buying boots on "teh internetz" does not equal complete disaster with a little research & prior knowledge.

There's a disconnect here stemming from serious AZ skiers who ski 39 to 109 times per year answering a question as if it's for themselves & their serious ski lifestyle habit, when the response is for a casual recreational skier who gets out maybe 9 or 10 times in a 6 month season. Those responses would be 100% spot-on for serious skiers, but the OP literally said he isnt that guy.
 

mister moose

Member
Joined
Oct 11, 2007
Messages
971
Points
18
There's a disconnect here stemming from serious AZ skiers who ski 39 to 109 times per year answering a question as if it's for themselves & their serious ski lifestyle habit, when the response is for a casual recreational skier who gets out maybe 9 or 10 times in a 6 month season. Those responses would be 100% spot-on for serious skiers, but the OP literally said he isnt that guy.
Right, but the OP not only asked for boot advice, he stated he was looking to be able to improve his skiing and ski black trails with confidence. It's probably going to take more than some comfy new boots.
 

deadheadskier

Moderator
Staff member
Moderator
Joined
Mar 6, 2005
Messages
25,727
Points
48
Location
Southeast NH
This thread is really getting oft-ridiculous.

1) The guy in question literally stated he skis 10 days per year. He doesn't need custom made liners & eleventy-million dollar boots from space materials tweaked by an ex boot fitter for the Austrian National Alpine team.

2) Buying boots on "teh internetz" does not equal complete disaster with a little research & prior knowledge.

There's a disconnect here stemming from serious AZ skiers who ski 39 to 109 times per year answering a question as if it's for themselves & their serious ski lifestyle habit, when the response is for a casual recreational skier who gets out maybe 9 or 10 times in a 6 month season. Those responses would be 100% spot-on for serious skiers, but the OP literally said he isnt that guy.
This is how all gear discussions go though

Your #2 point is really anatomy dependent. If you have flat feet or very high arches, there is literally not a boot on the market designed for that. There is not an off the shelf insole really designed for either as well. Foot discomfort is certainly a big part of why some people participate less in the sport and don't progress because of it.

Buying skis online is certainly a lot safer bet than buying boots online IMO. You can gather quite a bit of information to make an informed decision. Ski reviews are more meaningful than boot reviews. Even with that, similar threads about skis get pretty technical with overwhelming input and the typical advice to demo, demo, demo. You can't demo boots though. That's the difference. And boots are by far the most important piece of gear a skier owns, whether they are a 10 day a year recreational skier or a "lifestyle" skier as you describe.

I think for anyone, threads like this that share knowledge regarding just how much expertise there is to take advantage of is a good thing, even if it might seem too much for what someone like the OP may need.


"Believe it if you need it
If you don't, just pass it on"

Sent from my XT1635-01 using AlpineZone mobile app
 
Last edited:

Cobbold

Member
Joined
Apr 2, 2020
Messages
215
Points
18
Boot fitter

Recently learned how important a proper fit is for a ski boot, everything I have learned is that when you put your foot into the shell of the ski boot, you shouldn’t have more 1/2 inch at the back of the boot, not sure how much I have, since it’s hard to measure but it sure looks like 2 inches. Looking to go to either surefoot at Killington or nick baylock at Mt snow, surefoot is number one then baylock is number two, it seems their is a fair amount of negativity towards surefoot, but people never seem to express why, just the place sucks or the employees are rude, articles in Forbes/ski mag are always super positive, granted the writers could be getting paid by surefoot to write positive articles. Any comments about my current boot size and or surefoot/baylock would be appreciated


Thanks
Tom:flag:
 

mister moose

Member
Joined
Oct 11, 2007
Messages
971
Points
18
Any comments about my current boot size and or surefoot/baylock would be appreciated
The last time I was in Surefoot, they had a computer aided footbed setup. You'd stand on a pad, and several hundred plastic pins would measure the shape of your footprint. Then that information would be used to CNC out a footbed.

Compare that to where I went next at the Basin. They were hand made. And more importantly, they were hand formed.

I went with the Basin. Ray looked at my feet, and while on the heated moldable footbed machine, he molded my feet with his hands into the position and shape they should be, as opposed to the shape they are. The short version is he gave me more arch than I would normally have unsupported, and this makes a huge difference in fit.

While this isn't very current information, it points out how big a difference there is in boot fitters out there. I have never been back to Surefoot.
 

Cobbold

Member
Joined
Apr 2, 2020
Messages
215
Points
18
Mister moose, thanks for your input, thinking of sure foot, then I hear stories like yours, and I get more confused.
 

skiur

Member
Joined
Jan 27, 2012
Messages
830
Points
18
Mister moose, thanks for your input, thinking of sure foot, then I hear stories like yours, and I get more confused.

I 2nd the basin, I got my last pair of boots there and the process was the same as mister moose's.
 

BenedictGomez

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 26, 2011
Messages
10,765
Points
48
Location
PRNJ
The last time I was in Surefoot, they had a computer aided footbed setup. You'd stand on a pad, and several hundred plastic pins would measure the shape of your footprint. Then that information would be used to CNC out a footbed.


What's wrong with that, that all sounds pretty fantastic to me (And why do you assume handmade is more accurate)?
 

mister moose

Member
Joined
Oct 11, 2007
Messages
971
Points
18
What's wrong with that, that all sounds pretty fantastic to me (And why do you assume handmade is more accurate)?
Couple reasons. At that time, Surefoot's machine was using pencil sized pins that would elevate to your foot. (Checking their website, it looks like they still do) The resolution was not impressive. Basin's machine uses an air/sand/vacuum molded affair so that the resolution is more like the grains of sand under your feet. Far better resolution, in fact it's a lot like a mold, as opposed to a 1/4 inch estimate resolution.

Also, Surefoot has you stand on a flat board and the pegs come up to measure your foot. As I said, Ray shapes your foot to how it should be. He adjusts, pressures, shapes and holds your foot on the mold. That is a huge difference prior to molding, or in the case of Surefoot, passively measuring. How your foot should be positioned in the boot vs how it sags or spreads on a flat surface.

When finished, your foot is in the position and alignment it should be. With Surefoot's passive approach, your foot is merely in the position you adopt while standing unsupported.

I would think that this matters less to folks with perfect arches and perfect shape that fits a factory shell and liner as if it was made for them. I am not that person, and from what I gather so are lots of people. If you are a perfect fit in every way right out of the box person, you win, advance to go, collect your several hundred dollar savings.

What makes this complicated is (my opinion) most intermediate skiers don't know enough about boot fit to accurately self-assess their need for custom boot work vs off the shelf. They don't know how to ski with precision and they don't know what a precise fit feels like. Chicken and the egg. Get your boots dialed in before you know you need it, or plod on and eventually discover your boots are holding you back. For most, and myself, it's a journey. Multiple boot improvements and multiple discoveries and advancements on the hill all blend and weave into making you a better skier. You really need to do both, and you'll end up doing them over and over as the seasons roll by. Going by comfort alone is misleading and insufficient. As G forces increase, as response time decreases, as edge angles increase, comfort alone is not going to be your friend. In other words, a bean bag chair is very comfy, but you will never see one in a race car.
 
Last edited:

Cobbold

Member
Joined
Apr 2, 2020
Messages
215
Points
18
I found them in Killington, never heard of them before, definitely interested in using them, mister moose you have used surefoot in the past? Did you have to come back at all to basin for minor tweaks? Thanks in advance, Tom
 

BenedictGomez

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 26, 2011
Messages
10,765
Points
48
Location
PRNJ
Couple reasons. At that time, Surefoot's machine was using pencil sized pins that would elevate to your foot. (Checking their website, it looks like they still do) The resolution was not impressive. Basin's machine uses an air/sand/vacuum molded affair so that the resolution is more like the grains of sand under your feet. Far better resolution, in fact it's a lot like a mold, as opposed to a 1/4 inch estimate resolution.

And I imagine Surefoot's more expensive too, right? I used to live walking distance to a Surefoot, but decided against it ultimately due to sticker shock.
 

mister moose

Member
Joined
Oct 11, 2007
Messages
971
Points
18
I found them in Killington, never heard of them before, definitely interested in using them, mister moose you have used surefoot in the past? Did you have to come back at all to basin for minor tweaks? Thanks in advance, Tom
Basin Ski Shop is on the access road in Killington. I looked into Surefoot, but never used them. Yes, minor tweaks. Replacements. Adjustments. Repairs. I put a lot of ski hours in my boots. As I said above, it's a journey.

Another thing that compounds this process is the bad boot day. Somedays, for seemingly no reason at all, the boot hurts. The next day or two it goes away. Can't explain it. Ray says, 'Yup, bad boot day'. Somehow, and I have no good answer for this, you have to sort out the actual fit problem from a bad boot day.
 

mister moose

Member
Joined
Oct 11, 2007
Messages
971
Points
18
And I imagine Surefoot's more expensive too, right? I used to live walking distance to a Surefoot, but decided against it ultimately due to sticker shock.
Too long ago to remember.

There's also several grades of footbeds out there. I had a set that I knew were going flat and were causing some discomfort, but I just couldn't get into the shop. By the time I got to the shop, I had driven those footbeds so flat they were spider cracked. If you ski a lot, the more expensive ones last longer.
 
Top