I find it very hard to think that Jay was not a major target for Montreal skiers and riders. Whenever I was there there were a lot of Canadians.
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Burke Mountain Swallowed Up By Jay Peak? Is Burke Becoming "Jay Peak East"
- Thread starter halfpintvt
- Start date
steamboat1
New member
Same thing at Stowe which is even further away from Montreal.
Hawkshot99
Active member
As a non canadien, you will knotice them more than just a "American". So it seems like there are a lot more of them there. there is a week at my normal Mountain, that we call Canada week. there probably isn't that many Canadians there, but they stand out to you so much more with their accent(both Quebec and Ontario).
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I would agree that Jay was not a big draw for Canadian intermediate blue cruiser skiers, as the original poster said, but Montreal has long been a major market for Jay. I mean they were owned by MSSI for a long time....which is a Canadian company.
But back to Burke: after some reflection, I'm a bit concerned because the ski area experience that the managment team had here is now gone. If Jay was expanding their ski operations, improving snowmaking, installing new lifts, and otherwise doing things to improve their skiing product, I would be a bit more comfortable. But I see them investing a TON of money into other "amenities" at Jay and putting bandaids on the skiing infrastructure at best and that makes me worried because Burke, right now, is really a skier's mountain in the winter and biker's mountain in the summer. I'd want a ski area management team that knows what to do with a ski area running Burke (and having some more money to work with) as opposed to general business folks.
Seems sad to lose all that experience.......
And I will agree with folks that Burke may not be as close to the big markets, like other areas, but it is certainly quite accessible and an easy [longer] drive for some. Jay is 45-60 minutes further north of Burke.
SkiRaceParent
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I for one am not that concerned, take these into account:
1) They likely bought Burke for FAR BELOW normal purchase prices for mountains. Some estimates are they bought the entire mountain for $3-5MM. They could sell off a small slice of their land if/when the housing market (as it is in Boston now) gets better and make back their entire basis
2) Investments they will make will be based on EB-5 money, which is a large loan with very borrower friendly terms, from what I understand.
3) They have co-marketing synergies and appeal with Jay (as you all seem to agree, they are knocking it out of the park up there).
4) They didn't have a good snow year last year and many other areas had a good snow year. Knowing the fickleness of NEK weather, my guess is one of these next couple years, Burke will be the 'prize' for one or two storms early in the season, and some that never have tried Burke will do so for the first time, and fall in love.
5) The above coupled with affordable hotel, condos and land will appeal, especially as compared to the mountains to the south for the Boston crowd that either have no land/hotels (Cannon) or overpriced land/hotels (Bretton Woods, Loon, Waterville, etc.).
Lastly, they might not be breaking even yet, but it sounds like they are making the cost reductions (unfortunately I agree on many levels) necessary to sustain and preserve Burke for a long time to come without an operating cost, which will drive them to have a long view (I hope) with the mountain. Lastly, it won't hurt that there's a good chance (Fingers crossed) that a BMA recent grad will be the Olympic superstar next year which may go a long way to some uber-valuable, free marketing across the entire world.
1) They likely bought Burke for FAR BELOW normal purchase prices for mountains. Some estimates are they bought the entire mountain for $3-5MM. They could sell off a small slice of their land if/when the housing market (as it is in Boston now) gets better and make back their entire basis
2) Investments they will make will be based on EB-5 money, which is a large loan with very borrower friendly terms, from what I understand.
3) They have co-marketing synergies and appeal with Jay (as you all seem to agree, they are knocking it out of the park up there).
4) They didn't have a good snow year last year and many other areas had a good snow year. Knowing the fickleness of NEK weather, my guess is one of these next couple years, Burke will be the 'prize' for one or two storms early in the season, and some that never have tried Burke will do so for the first time, and fall in love.
5) The above coupled with affordable hotel, condos and land will appeal, especially as compared to the mountains to the south for the Boston crowd that either have no land/hotels (Cannon) or overpriced land/hotels (Bretton Woods, Loon, Waterville, etc.).
Lastly, they might not be breaking even yet, but it sounds like they are making the cost reductions (unfortunately I agree on many levels) necessary to sustain and preserve Burke for a long time to come without an operating cost, which will drive them to have a long view (I hope) with the mountain. Lastly, it won't hurt that there's a good chance (Fingers crossed) that a BMA recent grad will be the Olympic superstar next year which may go a long way to some uber-valuable, free marketing across the entire world.
dlague
Active member
The problem is - Burke is not a destination resort where Jay peak is as well as other resorts like Stowe and Sugarbush that have been mentioned in here which are all further away. Once more mountain side "Stuff" is at Burke, then it may become a more attractive destination. At this time, it is more of a locals (there and back in the same day) / Burke Academy stop!
Smellytele
Well-known member
I agree. When I ski Burke it is usually on a Friday/Saturday on my way to Jay which I then ski at for a day or 2. I have made a few day trips to Burke as well and went there once while staying at Cannon (Mittersill).
fbrissette
Well-known member
Jay Peak was known to many people but the marketing effort was essentially limited to a few signs at Mont-Sauveur (MSSI main station) and a presence at the annual ski show and that's about it. While some families made Jay Peak their home, the station was still far off the radar to most. Having to cross the border was a major deterrent. Most of Quebec's traffic consisted of Eastern Townships inhabitants (that were living reasonable close to the station) and young folks from the Montreal area, typically more hardcore skiers.
There is absolutely no comparison to what has happened in the past few years, with dozens giant billboards along Montreal highways, TV commercials, and a very strong Web presence (particularly this year - I see Jay Peak ads on a daily basis while surfing). I would venture that there are more non-skiing families aware of Jay Peak now than there were skiing families aware of it 15 years ago. Montreal families now reserve one year ahead for reading week.
The border crossing is worse now though, no? And it sounds like Jay's obstacle was that they had no real amenities for non-skiers whereas now they do, hence the big push.
Sounds like typical MSSI with what you described.
As a Jay owner and regular, what did you hear (or see) about Burke last year and this summer? Any marketing up there for Burke? Did you go?
fbrissette
Well-known member
Absolutely zero marketing for Burke to the Montreal crowd so far. Steve Wright mentioned at the homeowner meeting that they were first gonna go after the Boston crowd which makes sense driving-distance wise. Last season, we took the Burke-Jay pass and never went to Burke despite getting about 50 ski days at Jay. Snow conditions never really justified driving 1 hour each way. Went to Burke for mountain biking last month and actually saw a Jay Peak shuttle carrying a trailer full of bicycles. My take is that they might offer a free shuttle from Jay to Burke for people renting several days during several days during the ski season and that's about it.
Once you're renting at Jay, I see little reasons to drive back and forth to Burke until they build better amenities. To be fair, I've never skied Burke, but by most accounts I don't think the skiing justifies driving the extra distance. I can see it driving from Boston, ski the day and keep driving to Jay as someone else said.
As to the border crossing, there are 3 different routes to get to Jay Peak to Montreal, all requiring the same driving time. Two of those routes go through small roads where you will be the only car 90% of the time. Yet, most people will go through Highgate which is bigger and where a 20 minutes wait is not uncommon. As I've always taken the smaller roads I don't know if it's worse now. I imagine it has to be worse but I would think that a lot of the new Montreal traffic get hotel rooms for a few days and the day skiers might not have increased that much.
Smellytele
Well-known member
Why would amenities matter if you were already renting at Jay. A new hotel would not matter at all. The Lodge at Burke is already better than the Tram side lodge at Jay. Would a restaurant or hotel really get you to drive there to ski for a day?
dlague
Active member
I am not really sure that Burke's Lower base lodge is that much better! The Taramack Grill is cool but there is not much more. Mid Burke has the classic old school bar which is fun too. Jay Peak Tram side has the bars like Tower Bar and The Drink, restaurants like Alice's Table and The Foundry (bar & food) as well as couple of other cafes. In addition, if you want to chill after a day of skiing/snowboarding, there is the water park, a spa salon, an indoor ice rink and an arcade.
I think their plans for Burke is to develop it in a similar fashion but with other non skiing related offerings.
I have to agree with the the person who posted if renting at Jay Peak why go to Burke. If you are there for longer then just a weekend then Burke is a good option to change it up - then again Owl's Head is too since they have $15 Tuesdays and Wednesdays, Sutton is near by too.
from_the_NEK
Active member
Last year that statement was true much of the time since Burke fell into a snow hole for almost every major storm. However, often times Burke’s overall conditions can be better than Jay’s due to less skier traffic. Especially the days between storms (or if it is windy).
If you are going to be at Jay over a non-big powder weekend, I think the extra drive to Burke is totally justifiable. Especially when the glades are filled in. I think you are doing yourself a disservice by not at least trying it once. Kingdom-Tele lives a lot closer to Jay than he does to Burke and he often skis Burke. Are you saying that he is probably just wasting his time?
Jay Peak has actually been trying to get involved in a pilot program with the US Government that would allow private companies to fund increased staffing at border crossings. My guess is that they would fund the extra staffing at the rural crossings and not Highgate since they could more easily promote the improvement to the rural crossings without helping their competitors (Stowe, Sugarbush, Smuggs).
dlague
Active member
We skied Burke three times last year and actually had decent snow due to lower traffic for sure. We were able to ski much of the glades and experienced fairly good coverage! One of the days started with a refrozen surface and Deer Run was down to pavement in spots. However, it unexpectedly snowed the whole day and by 2 there were good powder bumps forming and Deer Run was covering up nicely! One of those days where the conditions improved throughout the day! I mention Deer Run because if it is not heavily traveled it is a blast at higher speed cranking around each corner - otherwise there is not much to that trail.
One issue with Burke getting from Sherburne to Mid Burke Express kind of sucks! Only do that like twice per day but still! We always park at the lower lodge since we like to head to the Tamarack Grill for lunch and at the end of the day. So we ski the lower section just to get there otherwise we ski upper Burke.
fbrissette
Well-known member
Wrote that late last night and did not properly reflect my thoughts. This is what I should have written:
- If staying at Jay, I don't think Burke is worth 2 hours of driving (one hour each way) for the skiing.
- For a multi-day trip, I don't see Burke over Jay until it gets better amenities.
For a day-trip, I don't care about amenities. I'll have lunch in my car if needed.
kingdom-tele
New member
NEK, I'm not sure your gonna convince anyone its worth it by including me in the reasoning for going burke.
Jay is a great intermediate mountain, it is a nice place for people to cut their teeth into woods skiing. After a few years at J they can come to Burke and see what J used to be. J and the N Greens get the snow. Our crew is simply glade to trade a foot snow to ski untracked boot top powder from open to close, share a beer with familiar faces on a chair that is actually comfortable.
Jay is a great intermediate mountain, it is a nice place for people to cut their teeth into woods skiing. After a few years at J they can come to Burke and see what J used to be. J and the N Greens get the snow. Our crew is simply glade to trade a foot snow to ski untracked boot top powder from open to close, share a beer with familiar faces on a chair that is actually comfortable.
dlague
Active member
If Jay is a great intermediate mountain then any ski area in New England is then classified that way. For example, not sure if Face Chutes, Kitz Woods, Canyonland, Everglade, UN, etc are considered intermediate by any standard. Each resort of any decent size has a percentage of easy, intermediate and difficult trails with the sweet spot being in the middle for all.
That being said, we ski both Jay and Burke and I do have to agree Burke has some very nice glades to skiers right with a variety of drops, steels and tight trees (Sasquatch and Dixieland) and to skiers left in The Jungle reminds me of Andres Paradise at Jay.
From my perspective, Jay has more glade skiing! Burke's trees in some respect are a little more technical in some spots, maybe, but I have fun at both! Although, Kitz Woods stacks up to anything at Burke as far as challenge.
We visit both about 3-4 times per season!
Jay does have more variety in terms of glades, but it is not an intermediate mountain at all. Burke has better blues and beginner/intermediate terrain
And the new HSQ's are pretty comfy at Burke.
fbrissette
Well-known member
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Jay is a shitty intermediate mountain. You have no intermediate runs on stateside, and a choice of four no so great runs from all three bigger lifts (Vermonter, Northway, Ulr's, Goat run), and no intermediate glades outside of Stateside Glade (Bushwacker and the moons should be green circles).
