Can you "own" a line cut at the area?

[Brettski]

What are you doing skiing the trees by yourself?

See another reason not to go in alone

 

[campgottagopee]

Had a similar thing happen to me and couple pals few years back. Didn't make a big deal about it at the time, but after the next dump we skied "his" stash and this time took some bright red surveys tape and flagged the entire thing for all to see. The dude knew who did it and boy was he friggin pissed. We laughed or areses off tha night in the bar listening to all these peeps talk about what a great "stash" they found.

 

[riverc0il]

Sounds like the dude did not plan out a well hidden entrance and exit to "his" line. No one owns anything. If I know a line is super secret and hush hush and I know who cut the line, I will wait off until the end of the day to sample the goods out of respect for the creative mastermind. But once something is well known and especially if the entrance and exit are obvious, all bets are off. If I see a line I like, I am going to take it. Period. Hypothetically speaking, if someone were to ski "my line" I would ask them how it was and if they enjoyed it and ask for help in keeping it quiet.

 

[andyzee]

You're lucky he didn't shoot you! He would have been well within his rights!

 

[WoodCore]

Sounds like the dude did not plan out a well hidden entrance and exit to "his" line. No one owns anything. If I know a line is super secret and hush hush and I know who cut the line, I will wait off until the end of the day to sample the goods out of respect for the creative mastermind. But once something is well known and especially if the entrance and exit are obvious, all bets are off. If I see a line I like, I am going to take it. Period. Hypothetically speaking, if someone were to ski "my line" I would ask them how it was and if they enjoyed it and ask for help in keeping it quiet.

Well said Steve!!

If I'm out in the woods searching around without prior knowledge and happen to come across a nice line, you bet your *ss I'm going to ski it!!!!!!

 

[darent]

"my line" on public land, go figure!!! I sure hope I don't stumble upon a "private line"when I'm snoopin around in the woods, maybe they should put up a no tresspassing sign!

 

[twinplanx]

Maybe he was just mad cuz you skied it better than he did?

 

[atkinson]

Sounds like no one who has responded has ever helped clean a line of their own. He took a major risk and now you are just along for the free ride. Give the guy some slack. I've heard of beatdowns for people who've have shown other people lines at Stowe. By the way, you are tacitly approving of illegal line cutting by skiing the routes.

This is one more reason we need to organize and legitimize the practice of clearing tree runs. No one should feel so much ownership of public land that they want to yell at somebody for skiing in the woods.

John

 

[JD]

John. I actually have, just not at the area . Problem with that line is no lifts serve it so I can never get any skiers to come out and ski it. I try to show everyone. There are lots of people at the hill that share what they create, some feel it's their right to try and control other people with their attitude. I say hide it better, but If I'm stuck in hellacious bushwack and find a line, I'm gonna ski it. And I'm gonna remember where it was and add it to my list. It's sort of crazy to think that you can trim woods at a lift served area on public land get pissed when people who have found it completely on their own ski it. Don't ya think?
I completely agree that in the future ski areas need to consult forresters and biologists to identify rare species and delicate habitat so impact is as low as possible. Just like the climbing community/VTCrag and IMBA/VMBA are doing. The writing is on the wall for everyone to smarten up.....or move away from areas like Big J and the Notch which are so heavily impacted allready. What's the scene at the Bush? Slide Brook seeing lots of action? Important bear habitat, yes? MRG woods are really trimmed and that's prime Bicknell's Thrush territory. Seems like a threshold has been reached. It's unfortunate.

 

[snoseek]

Sounds like no one who has responded has ever helped clean a line of their own. He took a major risk and now you are just along for the free ride. Give the guy some slack. I've heard of beatdowns for people who've have shown other people lines at Stowe. By the way, you are tacitly approving of illegal line cutting by skiing the routes.

This is one more reason we need to organize and legitimize the practice of clearing tree runs. No one should feel so much ownership of public land that they want to yell at somebody for skiing in the woods.

John

I don't buy that kind of attitude. That may fly in surfing, but this is public land mostly. I will seek and ski any line I can find and not for one second feel bad about it. I will show these lines to whoever I'm with. Territorial pissing? are we dogs?

 

[riverc0il]

Sounds like no one who has responded has ever helped clean a line of their own.

S'cuse me?

By the way, you are tacitly approving of illegal line cutting by skiing the routes.

Until more legal options become available, what are the other options? On map glades get tracked out way too quickly and become bump fields. There is major demand for good tree lines. There are not a ton of truly natural lines around that were not thinned (and by thinning we are talking brushing out and eliminating small growth while leaving trees standing). I don't think of this as tacitly approving of illegal activity as much as proving there is a demand for lines done in a more legal fashion. Which I think is an argument that needs to made. If the powers that be do not want illegal line cutting and there is a huge demand for this activity (skiing trees and powder) then there needs to be some legitimate and legal operations to open up some lines under official approval and direction.

This is one more reason we need to organize and legitimize the practice of clearing tree runs. No one should feel so much ownership of public land that they want to yell at somebody for skiing in the woods.

I agree it needs to be legitimized. And I am all for organization. This topic has recently surfaced on every single message board on the internet with east coast skiers and specifically was discussed at the Big Jay meeting. The question everyone is asking is "how"? This is entire issue is a pending article on my site, but I think this shows a severe limitation of online versus off line. It is far easier to organize people in person than online, IMO (at least to form an organization). When a core group of people closely nit get together, it is much easier to get something done with purpose and vision. I have no organization building skills but am willing to help out once something gets proposed. Until we have organization and legitimization, I see no reason to limit ourselves to on piste on map trails only.

 

[dmc]

yes it is and stay the F off - flatlander, herb, gaper....

 

[atkinson]

I am not condoning territorial pissing, but the responders were basically claiming that cutting lines was bad, yet skiing them and rubbing the workers' nose in it was okay.

Believe me, my point is to fix a growing problem with unplanned, unapproved cutting and replace it with planned and approved routes. It doesn't mean that these routes need to show up on maps, either.

Because we've let the glade underground develop unchecked and unorganized, we now have a disconnected community with no real direction. Regardless of whether you've cut lines or just ski them, we need to work together. Yelling back at someone or pissing on their parade does no one any good.

John

 

[JD]

John, not sure where I see everyone saying cut tree lines are bad. More like "if you cut on public land you have to expect the public to eventually use it".
Any nose rubbing suggested was half serious I think.
Sounds to me like maybe you are a person that does cut line at the area, which is done alot, and have been pissed at people finding your stash?
Either way I think we are in agreement that the days of renegade cutting are coming to an end at lift served areas, and that this one guy, who I ran into needs to relax, and not be such a bung.
Cheers.
PS
I'm moving to Northfield next week, so the Bush is my new stomping grounds. What's the best skin up to get to the Slidebrook stuff?

 

[eatskisleep]

In the North Shore (British Columbia) the same thing has been happening with mountain bike freeride trails over the years. The first year you cut a line, usually on private property, usually illegally, you should expect just you and a few other riders, typically your buddies, to ride it that season. The next season, even more, as other locals and riders stumble upon it. By the third summer the trail is open, if good, you should expect well over 100 riders, and more as word travels. By the end of the third season, you should have to do repair work to the trail in regards of erosion, improvements, and repairing bridges.

Same thing (time frame) applies to stashes, but only if hidden well. You can "own" a stash, err maybe. I don't know if that is the right word. Maybe if you do all the work there, and don't expect someone else to do something. But even if you do "own" it and it is "your stash" you can't stop others from using it... unless of course it is in your backyard on your own property.

Fact is, there is no way to cover up your tracks leading into the stash, so once it has been skied once without a new snowfall to follow, the tracks are there for anyone to follow.

 

[wa-loaf]

I am not condoning territorial pissing, but the responders were basically claiming that cutting lines was bad, yet skiing them and rubbing the workers' nose in it was okay.

I think we were all being facetious in our responses. :roll: I certainly was and we appreciate the folks who have the time to do a little trimming. And I can understand someone being a little possessive of their hard work, but if someone finds your line and you act like an ass. You deserve to have the line outed. I think River had the correct response "hey how'd like it? please keep it a secret . . ." Make a friend and keep your stash safe.

 

[atkinson]

I have shared stashes with way more people than I can count and try not to hassle anyone for finding anything. If they cut entrances or mark lines, then I may not be so accomodating, but I also don't get too worked up over it. I have friends who espouse the possessive mentality of "the only people who can ski a line are the ones who cut it", so I understand where this guy in Stowe was coming from, not that I agree.

I don't cut unauthorized stuff anymore, but I am deeply interested in legitimizing the practice of glade trimming. VMBA is a perfect example of what we need to be doing for off-piste skiing and riding. And yes, I have been a board member of VMBA for many years, plus actively writing and advocating about the glade issue in a variety of venues.

We can joke about it or do something positive. Your choice.

John

 

[darent]

Sounds like no one who has responded has ever helped clean a line of their own. He took a major risk and now you are just along for the free ride. Give the guy some slack. I've heard of beatdowns for people who've have shown other people lines at Stowe. By the way, you are tacitly approving of illegal line cutting by skiing the routes.

This is one more reason we need to organize and legitimize the practice of clearing tree runs. No one should feel so much ownership of public land that they want to yell at somebody for skiing in the woods.

John

If you come across a slot, how do you know who it belongs to, it could be a natural line, or a trimmed line, new or old line???? no one should harrass you about it, as earlier stated you might get more mileage by asking some one not to reveal it.

 

[JimG.]

usuall when we run into gomers like that I try and just piss on a tree in front of them and then tell them its mine now, unless ofcourse they piss higher up the tree than me.

Perfect!

I wonder if this strategy works in the cafeteria with the people who say a table is theirs because their bag is under it?

 

[ski220]

Two issues here.

The first - ownership at a circus like Stowe? You've got to be kidding!

Second is the whole issue of cutting in the forest. Pages can be written on this and several good starting points have been braught up. Environmentaly and sustainability. Legallity, promotion and responsibility. Entitlement and usage.

Where does it go from here? It resembles issues that mtn. bikers have been facing for the last 20 something years. Private stash, increased popularity and usage, environmental degradation, conflict and closure.

Resemble Big Jay?