Can you "own" a line cut at the area?

[Shroud]

If you don't own the land then you have no right to claim possession. Anyone suggesting otherwise can go pound sand.

 

[JD]

John. How do you think the FPR people feel about legal glading? I know they have been very accomodating recently with MTBers and have even mentioned fast-tracking some approval type red tape to get legal riding in. I see this as a reaction to the great successes at KT and to a lesser degree, Milestone. There is no doubt skiiers represent as large a user group with the same ecomonic impact potential as MTBers, do you think they would be into it?

 

[from_the_NEK]

Sounds like the dude did not plan out a well hidden entrance and exit to "his" line. No one owns anything. If I know a line is super secret and hush hush and I know who cut the line, I will wait off until the end of the day to sample the goods out of respect for the creative mastermind. But once something is well known and especially if the entrance and exit are obvious, all bets are off.

River is VERY good about this. I know from personal experience.

 

[atkinson]

In regards to mountain biking, FPR has progressed tremendously since my first experiences with them in Phen Basin. As for fast-tracking, I am not aware of this, although the process has been much smoother since VMBA was granted an official agreement. Before that, it was piecemeal and more complicated.

I don't know what FPR thinks at the moment about glading. They are not the only players though. USFS, Act 250, VT-Fish and Wildlife, the local towns and ski resorts, GMC, CTA, the backcountry community and the public will all probably have a say in how this plays out.

I am working on a follow-up piece for VT Sports on the Big Jay incident and the broader implications. Here's the first one, http://www.vtsports.com/magazine/content.cfm?storyID=245, if anyone wants to read.

John

 

[ski220]

Nice article to start the discusion with. One correction though. All properties have a "land owner" not just "private" property. Other land owners are local and other goverments and/or govermental agencies. It is on these lands that most people feel that they can do what they please without regard to others users. Hence conflict of interests.

Most true backcountry skiers that truly earn their turns may have a better understanding of and appreciation of nature (and others). Most SLACKCOUNTRY skiers are just a bunch of YAHOO's with FAT skies. Ten years ago there was not this problem as most people could not handle the terrian.

 

[campgottagopee]

I am not condoning territorial pissing, but the responders were basically claiming that cutting lines was bad, yet skiing them and rubbing the workers' nose in it was okay.



John

Really???? I don't think sooooooo. I would say that this guy just handled himself poorly as a person and a skier and desirves everything he gets. But that's just me.

 

[JD]

John. I was talking to Rick and Hardy about the whole little river/cotton brook/trapps/masfield touring center the SMBC has on the hot plate for next year. I guess Mr. Wood and Mrs. Fredricks, as well as their boss, have conveyed to Hardy and Rick that the state is really looking to develope MTBing and will fast track any approval process for future projects.

I was having a conversation yesaterday with some friends about it and it seem like it comes down to revenue.

MTBing in areas like the KT and Milstone have proved to be a good shot in the arm for local economies, and the state is recognizing that fact, and is therefore on board for getting that sort of thing going in the state parks.

VAST has somehow convinced everyone that because they travel on top of the snow, they can go where they want, despite the fact that they doze their trails, go thru wetlands, spew 2 stroke oil and gas, represent serious noise polution, and blast around at night thru the winderness disturbing pretty much anything with ears. But they creat revenue.

Hunters=revenue
Fishermen, who have some pretty major impact on riverbanks at popular areas, revenue.
I think it would be a good idea to sell a winter rec pass for 10-20 bucks, good for the season, and earmark the money for winter back country access and impact studies/regeneration efforts. Get some money flowing into the state gov. and, as can be seen with other groups who are arguably more invasive, we may have more freedom, and we will provide the state with additional resources to control and develope this growing demographic in skiiers and riders.
Money talks.

 

[atkinson]

To repeat, I am not condoning territorial pissing. I've written articles for Couloir, Telemark Skier, Vermont Sports and the Valley Reporter about the off-piste skiing at Big Jay, Mount Mansfield, Slide Brook, and Killington, among other places. I've led tours in some of these areas and freely share info about my experiences. I am also the manager of the Sugarbush Outback program, and actively lead Slide Brook tours. That said, in the current climate of don't ask - don't tell, I understand why some people feel a sense of ownership. I don't agree with it, and would love to change it, but that is the way it is now.

As for the elitism regarding backcountry vs. slackcountry, I gotta call bs. Most of the areas we are talking about are slackcountry of some sort and where most of us ski and ride. The width of the board has nothing to do with it. We are all part of the problem, in one way or another, at this point.

JD, I was not fully aware of the Cotton Brook process, but Rick and Hardy have been instrumental in helping grow VMBA's legitimacy, so I am not surprised. And the fact that FPR is fully recognizing mtbing's positive low-impact influence on community development is encouraging. The USFS is also coming around quickly and we expect to open some new terrain in GMNF in the near future.

With the numbers involved, the case for backcountry skiing should be an even easier sell, and there is already on-the-ground proof that glades can be created and maintained in a sustainable manner. Check out www.treeskier.com for some great info.

As we consider the possibility of some type of backcountry ski/ride advocacy group, I feel that the GMC and CTA should take the lead on this process. The LT passes along the top of 99% of the terrain we are discussing and the the CT runs along most of the bottom of it.

If this doesn't happen though, I wonder if some of the existing VMBA infrastructure might be engaged. This is totally off-the-cuff speculation, but knowing the winter habits of many of the prime players on the board, the case could be made that it is a potential off-shoot.

Enjoy the sunshine today!

John

 

[JD]

John, do you catch greif for taking people into slidebrook? If that kind of thing was happening at Stowe, you'de have sugar in your tank.
Great Link BTW. Thanks.

 

[kingdom-tele]

John- I have appreciated your views on this topic and drive to develop a legal way of trimming these lines, but please, if you are out there trimming and clearing a line with the thought that it is going to be all yours and everyone else is trespassing on your work then that person should get a clue, sure it stings when you gave dreamed that line in perfect untracked, but come on, seriously, its just skiing/riding, if your so possessive then maybe you need to go a little deeper into the forest, better yet, maybe you should move somewhere else. There is plenty of woods to go around, and plenty of powder. I make it a point to meet and greet anyone who happens upon our "super special secret stashes", then quickly move on to the next, somedays its all untracked, somedays its not, but it sure beats sitting here typing this

 

[Tin Woodsman]

Interesting topic. I can see both sides, as one who has created lines and one who has stumbled across many a well-hidden one. The aggro attitude you were subjected to is unfortunate and a little silly. I feel the guy's pain, to the extent that he labored for hours in the hopes that he would get first tracks until the end of time. But they all get discovered eventually, especially if they are in-bounds.

Still, there are limits. It wouldn't be OK, in my view, to flag or otherwise alter the entrance to this line so you can find it better. I've found flags on lines that I've cut and I tore them down in anger - doesn't matter if it was marked for winter or summer pursuits, it shouldn't be there. If I've shown you a line I cut in confidence to share the stoke, that doesn't give you license to spew about it to all of your friends, let alone reveal its location on the internet for all to see. I got burned by this once, and I'll never show this individual (thanks, Dave) a line again, be it cut by me or someone else. I'll probably be a little more selective on regarding sharing knowledge with other friends as well - once bitten, twice shy and all that.

Gladed lines are inherently different than mtb trails or just about any dry land sporting pursuit. If 10 guys find your secret mtb stash, you've got to deal with a few tracks and the occasional rut in a wet spot. If 10 guys find your gladed skiing stash, it's trashed until the next snow storm, assuming you can get there quick enough when that snow does come.

Regardless, Atkinson is definitely on to something w/r/t organizing our efforts. I've yet to see anyone in a position of authority or prominence step forward with a holisitic proposal to address this issue with land owners/managers.

 

[ckofer]

Bad experience the other day at Stowe. Some guy started ginving me a bunch of crap for "skiing his line" that he cut at the ski area about 1/8 of a mile from the lift.
IMO, if you cut a line in lift served terrain, it's only a matter of time until someone like me, looking for freshness, finds it. Or sees his tracks coming out and goes on a mission to find the entrance. Might get a couple seasons out of it before people just know, might not. What's the concensus?
Can you "own" slack country lines?
Or do you just hope they stay hidden for as long as possible?
DVT

I would have just told this douchebag it's my line and thanked him for his good work.Then I'd go about my day. Nice find.

I'm not sure what the ski area's take is on this landscaping effort but if someone cut a trail in the woods behind my home (my land), it would not become "their" trail.

 

[riverc0il]

As we consider the possibility of some type of backcountry ski/ride advocacy group, I feel that the GMC and CTA should take the lead on this process. The LT passes along the top of 99% of the terrain we are discussing and the the CT runs along most of the bottom of it.

This seems like a logical starting place but does any one else feel like the GMC is hostile towards the cause? I was at the Big Jay meeting at JPR on the 15th and my impression of Ben Rose was that he was rather hostile towards the "BC" community of tree skeirs. Let's put it this way, there was definitely no olive branch extended what-so-ever. GMC does have a skiing sub-group but are there many alpine/randonee/downhill tele'ers on that community or is it mostly nordic and touring tele? GMC seems more geared towards Long Trail whereas a group like the AMC seems a little more broad based (but again, their "skiing" sub-group seems very much geared towards tele'ers and not representative of the "BC" community overall. Let's not leave boarders out of this discussion either. I have given thought to involvement with AMC and GMC in terms of a good place to start towards organization, but wonder about the overall climate of those organizations towards organized efforts to expand and maintain tree lines. I have not proposed any such questions to either group, just rambling out loud. Members from either organization care to comment on the climate of each organizations towards skiing?

 

[riverc0il]

Let me clarify my previous comment with an example in addition to my overall impression of how Ben Rose addressed the tree cutting issue at the meeting. Here is a quote from a GMC Press Release:

In the words of former Jay Peak Ski Patroller and GMC stewardship volunteer, Russ Ford, “As backcountry skiing has gone from the province of a few to a mass-marketed activity, we’re loving these places to death. We need to develop a Leave No Trace ethic for backcountry skiing like we’ve done for hiking and backpacking. If you’re not a good enough skier to ski natural glades without cutting, stick to the ski resorts’ maintained trails.”

http://www.greenmountainclub.org/news.php?id=112

That last sentence is somewhat ignorant or delusional, in my opinion, because natural glades that have not been cleaned up are extremely rare. This statement, coming from a GMC Steward suggests a hostile attitude towards cutting of any kind. How many true unmaintained backcountry tree runs are there? Perhaps I am just uniformed (I know there are certainly a few in Northern VT but definitely not a ton and far from enough to sustain demand). Loving it to death? Certainly no more than the hiking community or any other outdoor group. We are all in this together and finding sustainable solutions to satisfy both environmental longevity and recreational demand should be considered the top priority.

 

[riverc0il]

John, could you clarify a few items from your article linked to above? You specify that the cutters were caught with motion detector cameras, could you cite the source of that information as that is the first I heard about it. From what I understood, the cut was first spotted by a tram operator at JPR and then someone from the GMC spotted cutting gear and called in potential suspicious activity to the game warden. Just want to make sure I have all the details correct. Also, could you provide details on legit maintenance operations at Bush and Bolton? I have participated and aware of the MRG program but was not await of Bush or Bolton.

You mention CTA which is definitely a good standard to model from. But there are some differences I think between CTA versus cutting tree lines. Would working with CTA be a good starting point from your perspective? e.g. teaming up with CTA to maintain tree lines accessible from the CTA? There are already lines that are accessible from the CTA, I am just wondering does the tree skiing community have an ally with the CTA?

Next, you are correct that there is no "legal difference" between the Big Jay cut and what most local bird watchers do during the Fall in maintaining lines. But there is definitely a big gray area regarding the right/wrong of the issue. While advocating for change is great, I continue to maintain that while legally on par as illegal their is a moral difference of right/wrong. Painting the issue as black and white fails to address supporting points for why we needed an organized effort for maintained runs, e.g. that cut trails maintained the correct way is environmentally friendly and sustainable, as per the TreeSkier.com link you provided.

Looking forward to the next installment, keep us posted when it is published, thanks!

 

[riverc0il]

One more thing to add in relation to the GMC... I neglected to address this at the meeting unfortunately, but I am wondering how much good will was created by the BC community chipping in financially to support the restoration efforts such as the $1500 raised by the PW07 movie showing and BC'ers volunteering to help with the restoration efforts (more people volunteered than could actually do the work because GMC wanted to limit impact, etc.). GMC did not thank the BC community or address the out pouring of support at the meeting on the 15th.

 

[ckofer]

Some time ago, I used to be involved with NEMBA . They build and maintain mountain bike trails. I lead a project where we put in 3/4 of a mile of single-track in a state park. I learned a lot about the different forces at work-not all are sympathetic to our agendas.

This thread has gone from discussing some jerk's attitude to that of public policy. I'd like to see more access to tree skiing but standards have to be in place to protect the woods so that this is sustainable. Usually this means designating portions of woods.

At first I thought it was bit beaurocratic to craft too many rules this way but then I envisioned what our state parks would look like if 1000 people put in trails without a plan or standard...

 

[kingdom-tele]

Riv- I think you heard wrong, I was one of the volunteers for the oct work day, I talked with the steward two days before and there were still four open spots, I wouldn't say the BC skiing community showed and overwhelming urgency to help

 

[riverc0il]

Riv- I think you heard wrong, I was one of the volunteers for the oct work day, I talked with the steward two days before and there were still four open spots, I wouldn't say the BC skiing community showed and overwhelming urgency to help

Perhaps I misunderstood, but the information I have came directly from the Big Jay meeting earlier this month in reference to the number of offers for help. Perhaps they received more "offers" than actual "shows" but it was specifically mentioned that they did have to limit the number of people assisting with the work day. Perhaps that was from the ecologist rather than Rose, but it was mentioned they could not bring everyone that offered to help due to the sensitive nature of the area and fear of too many feet making things worse.

There had been a lot of buzz on places like TTips TTalk about pitching in to help out on an organized work day. The details on the work day were certainly not publicized to the best of my knowledge, so perhaps the offers became no shows due to lack of knowledge. I certainly would have participated had the details been publicized, I did not know the work day even happened until after the fact. This speaks to the communication gap between the GMC and the skiing/riding community on this issue...

 

[kingdom-tele]

Riv - I would agree there was a communication issue, but with all the banter on the internet from TTips to TGR to even here there was plenty of time for people to find out and inquire on their own about time and place of the work day, I think the "idea" of it was good enough for some, unfortunately, I think this is the mentality of a majority of "backcountry" skiers - plenty of time to work their own private/protected/gaurded lines but not enough time to really give a shit about anything else, also the same reason the BJ cut was skied so early prompting the fencing and control issues.

Reading that back it sounds a bit to harsh, I am sure there are many skiers who do care, but talking and doing are different things