Cannon Mountain...thoughts

[Puck it]

From 2009: This mentions the GS racing trail

Cannon Mountain Advisory Commission
November 16, 2009 Meeting @ Cannon Mountain ​

[FONT=Arial,Arial][FONT=Arial,Arial]Members present: [/FONT][/FONT]
Dennis Murphy (Chairman), Senator John Gallus, Representative Kathleen Taylor, Martha McLeod, Georgie Thomas
[FONT=Arial,Arial][FONT=Arial,Arial]Others present: [/FONT][/FONT]
Ted Austin (Director, NH Division of Parks & Recreation), John DeVivo (GM, Cannon & FNSP), Ron Kirby, Jack Thomas, Kevin Johnson, Art McGrath (Littleton Courier), Robert Blechl (Caledonian-Record)
[FONT=Arial,Arial][FONT=Arial,Arial]Meeting minutes: [/FONT][/FONT]
Chairman Murphy called the meeting to order at 10:10 AM.
May 1st meeting minutes were approved.
Cannon financials briefly discussed by John DeVivo.
FY ’10 YTD financials (July 1 – Nov 12 only):
Total revenue Nov 12 was 5% behind budget and 8% behind last year. Summer related business volume, not winter.
Total expense Nov 12 was 30% under budget and 7% over last year, as expected.
Net total Nov 12 was 105% ahead of budget and 105% behind last year – incredibly flexible in Nov/Dec annually.
Net total as of Nov 12 had picked up 16% points, however, in the last 4 weeks w/winter momentum building ​

[FONT=Arial,Arial][FONT=Arial,Arial]Notables: [/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Arial,Arial]

​

[/FONT]Season pass revenue up 14% as of Nov 15, and volume up 8% as of Nov 15; est. 15% NEW passes

Summer retail was off by 8% compared to last summer

BCG commissions well off this summer, largely due to loss of summer conference venue (constr.)
Glen Group has done an incredible job thus far at connecting w/our core values & marketing plan!
This year will set the tone for the next several years as we attack the I-93 corridor, NH, and Lin-Wood
Very specifically targeted campaigns, no more shotgun style approaches
Mittersill discussion led by John DeVivo.
Lift funding of $3.065M was approved in June. Chairman Murphy commended the efforts of Rep.Taylor and Sen. Harold Janeway. Rep. Taylor commended Martha McLeod’s efforts, as well. Bid expected to be put out in Dec. ’09. Contract expected to be awarded in Jan/Feb ’10. Construction expected to commence in spring ’10. Lift expected to open in Dec. ’10. The project is to be 50% generally funded, 50% funded through the Cannon Mountain Capital Improvement Fund.
Mittersill Terrain Area will be opened, marketed and managed as a backcountry terrain area for the 09/10 winter season. Shuttle service to be offered from base of Mittersill to Notchview Lodge on weekends & holidays. Terrain adds 86 acres (50%) to Cannon’s existing terrain. Believed to unprecedented at such a scale in the East.
Kevin Johnson offered questions as to whether Cannon had done environmental and business impact studies on the Mittersill area. John DeVivo answered that DRED and WMNF had done such studies prior to entering into the Memorandum of Understanding. Johnson asked if Cannon would comply with any necessary DES or other applicable regulations. DeVivo answered that Beverly Kowalik at BPW would steward the project, and would be working with Tom Mansfield and Seth Prescott at DRED/DD&M to ensure compliance with State and/or local regulations, as and if required.
Cannon Mountain capital improvements discussion led by John DeVivo.
Capital improvement funding of $1.893M is 71% spent (as of November 15th). Total project completion percentage (13 projects) estimated at 60-70%. All 13 projects were detailed individually regarding percentage spent and percentage of completion. 48 vendors used in total thus far, 36 of them are NH based (75%)… some sole source / others used via bid process. Kevin Johnson asked whether Cannon had secured a building permit from the Town of Franconia. Martha McLeod answered that the NH Attorney General’s office had told the Franconia Select board that it was not required.
Johnson asked whether Cannon had complied with an RSA requiring that a full set of plans be offered to the Town of Franconia 60 days prior to the start of the project. DeVivo answered that he’d spoken with Rich McLeod (Franconia Select board, CMAC member) prior to the CMAC meeting, and had agreed to provide a full set of plans to Mr. McLeod in short order.
Tour of Peabody / Notchview base area improvements led by John DeVivo. ​

Cannon Beach Deck – 3,000 s.f. – adaptive ramp to be completed by opening day, tie-in w/NV next spring Cannonball Pub (roughly $400K Cannon / $200K BCG) – airlock next spring – [FONT=Arial,Arial][FONT=Arial,Arial]opening date Dec 18th [/FONT][/FONT]
Peabody Lodge / Lafayette Food Court – added 1,600’ s.f. space & swapped hood around Rental & Repair shops – all electronic by Jan 1st / airlock next spring New PB Family Room – adding arcade space in old family room – [FONT=Arial,Arial][FONT=Arial,Arial]opening date Dec 18th [/FONT][/FONT]
Out front: upper deck bridge completed by opening day / added handicap parking area / added drop-off area / new lower level bridge next spring / new entryway for staircase next spring Welcome Center – all new, do a full walk-thru of WC & office space / conf room NV Lodge – retail expansion / seating expansion (2 more windows next spring) / reclaimed lobby area We’re also now fully compliant w/fire code (suppression) in both PB & NV ALL capital moves @ PB / NV were designed to maximize on our ability to serve all sets of clientele and maximize upon our ability to merchandise and generate more revenue:
[FONT=Courier New,Courier New][FONT=Courier New,Courier New]o [/FONT]
[/FONT]Family area expansions & restrooms @ PB to better service the brown baggers
[FONT=Courier New,Courier New][FONT=Courier New,Courier New]o [/FONT]
[/FONT]Seating expansions at PB / NV to better service the retail F&B guests
[FONT=Courier New,Courier New][FONT=Courier New,Courier New]o [/FONT]
[/FONT]Cannonball Pub to better service the pub & entertainment crowd
[FONT=Courier New,Courier New][FONT=Courier New,Courier New]o [/FONT]
[/FONT]Cannon Beach deck adds a whole new dimension to peoples’ enjoyment on sunny days
[FONT=Courier New,Courier New][FONT=Courier New,Courier New]o [/FONT]
[/FONT]Rental & repair shop facility enhances guests’ first and return experiences
[FONT=Courier New,Courier New][FONT=Courier New,Courier New]o [/FONT]
[/FONT]Retail expansion adds elbow room & adds a new logo-gear area
[FONT=Courier New,Courier New][FONT=Courier New,Courier New]o [/FONT]
[/FONT]Welcome Center enhances guests’ first and return experiences
[FONT=Courier New,Courier New][FONT=Courier New,Courier New]o [/FONT]
[/FONT]Entire project lends itself to a tremendous upswing in summer conference/catering/wedding business

Sunsetting of committees/commissions discussion led by Rep.Taylor.

All committees/commissions deemed obsolete/unnecessary are to be "sunset" by the end of 2010, per the Governor’s request, as they take a tremendous amount of State employees’ time and resources to arrange and/or manage. A committee (HB-2 statutory study committee) has been formed to study the usefulness and effectiveness of all committees/commissions, and it is taking information/input currently.

Discussion of whether a formal document should be issued to the study committee by CMAC requesting that the CMAC is allowed to continue. Georgie Thomas motioned that a formal document be issued to the study committee by CMAC requesting that the CMAC be allowed to continue. Motion seconded by Rep.Taylor, passed with a unanimous positive vote. John DeVivo offered that as he’s considered the CMAC’s efforts to be overwhelmingly positive and helpful to Cannon during his tenure, he’ll also go on record requesting that the CMAC be allowed to continue. The question was raised as to whether Director Austin should arrange for the CMAC to meet with the study committee; unclear as to who would check with Director Austin (who’d had to depart the meeting early) on it.
Old Man of the Mountain Legacy Fund discussion led by Martha McLeod.
The OMMLF has a new director, a new energy, new members, and a new direction in general. Focusing on the future of FNSP as a whole, with the legacy / memorial a large part of it, rather than purely on the memorial park itself. Discussion of joint efforts with the Friends of Franconia Notch State Park group, Franconia Notch State Park & Cannon Mountain staff, and other interested groups.
Legislation affecting FNSP discussion led by Rep. Taylor.
HB-58 was discussed re: setting parameters as to the leasing and/or sale of any and all State Park entities and/or facilities/areas, in part or in whole. Essentially under study and discussion as to how and/or why State Park properties and/or entities are leased or sold, and what the impact would or will be and upon whom. Also under discussion regarding the bill would be a clause that no bill as such would be submitted without public input and study on the aforementioned questions or issues.
Race trail discussion led by John DeVivo.
A ten-year discussion as to working toward a race/training/camp trail connection of Skylight, Upper and Lower Hardscrabble, and Turnpike has picked up momentum lately. The project would require ample cut and fill maneuvers on the trails in question, and probably an under/over bridge to ease traffic and improve safety. The project is estimated at $500K. The project would offer a better and safer full-length GS racing and training facility (lending itself to many more Championship-level USSA events), another full-length skiing trail for the general public (easing and spreading mid-mtn traffic), and an off-training camp venue for Cannon/FSC to host camps.
The interest has been sparked lately by a citizens’ group with strong ski industry and US Ski Team ties. Serious financial backing has been mentioned, and a closed-door meeting has been scheduled on Monday, November 23rd at Cannon to discuss the feasibility of the project and a potential launch of a fundraising effort if it’s deemed feasible.
Cannon Mountain (and DRED) will back the project publicly, but only if the entire project is funded privately and goes through the approval process strictly as an "accept and expend" proposition, with no capital funding expended through Cannon Mountain’s resources. Further, in the short term (next 1 – 2 two-year budget cycles), any and all "extra" resources utilized in that area (snowmaking, grooming, patrol) would be utilized at the expense of FSC’s current use of the front five and/or other racing/training facilities – a point made clear to the citizens’ group and FSC.
Motion to adjourn the meeting made by Georgie Thomas.
Seconded by Martha McLeod and Rep. Taylor, and passed with a unanimous vote. ​

The next meeting, tentatively scheduled for spring ’10, will be convened at the call of the Chairman. ​

 

[thetrailboss]

Sounds terrible!

Cannon recorded a net profit of $426K on its Quickbooks report, DRED reported a FY10 closure of $417K on its State report for Cannon; Season Pass revenues exceeded $1M for the first time;

Cannon’s current FY11 net positive is $172K, some $159K ahead of FY10 YTD; revenue is running 8% ahead of FY10, while expense is running 5% under FY10; Season Pass revenue is running 25% ahead of FY10.

Cannon’s management team believes that its remaining $301K operating deficit will be eliminated in FY11; future net profits should be applied toward making capital/maintenance improvements and paying down the debt service on the CMCIF, with the annual difference between the Sunapee lease payments and the debt service on the CMCIF to be made up for by allocations from Cannon’s net profit; Cannon’s management team believes that with its aggressive 10/11 marketing plan, the improvements made and marketed since September 2008, and an ever-increasing season pass holder base, the ski area will post a fourth consecutive net profit while continuing to improve upon its products, services, and infrastructure;

The Mittersill Double Chair construction project is running on time and on budget

The project was spec’d at approximately $2.62M, with a contingency budget setting it at approximately $2.95M; The project was funded with 50% CMCIF funds and 50% general funds; The project scope included not only the lift construction, but the tear-down and removal of the old lift and the expansion/reclamation of 86 acres of all-natural terrain (a 50% increase in Cannon’s terrain offerings).

Yeah, fire the bums! :lol:

Rich McLeod remarked to Chairman Murphy that under its current management team, Cannon is being operated as efficiently and effectively as it ever has; there was concurrence amongst the group; John DeVivo replied that Cannon’s team is very passionate and has set aggressive goals toward future successes.

 

[threecy]

It's odd to me that you have been posting "facts" about Cannon's profitability ad nauseum for many months over several threads, yet you haven't seen this data before? I found all of these NH reports by copying and pasting one of your quotes into a google search!

I hadn't seen that particular PDF. I've seen the data in other files.

 

[deadheadskier]

Off Topic:

When does the Meullers lease of Sunapee run out?

I wonder if they will continue to maintain leasing the property now that their real estate and ski expansion project for the West Bowl appears to be dead in the water.

 

[Black Phantom]

Off Topic:

When does the Meullers lease of Sunapee run out?

I wonder if they will continue to maintain leasing the property now that their real estate and ski expansion project for the West Bowl appears to be dead in the water.

http://www.friendsofmountsunapee.org/

 

[threecy]

Off Topic:

When does the Meullers lease of Sunapee run out?

I wonder if they will continue to maintain leasing the property now that their real estate and ski expansion project for the West Bowl appears to be dead in the water.

I believe the current lease is through 2018. Tim Mueller will be pushing 70 at that point, so who knows whether or not the Muellers would continue. Triple Peaks/CNL, on the other hand, I would imagine would want to continue to lease the ski area, as it's been profitable.

 

[Puck it]

Off Topic:

When does the Meullers lease of Sunapee run out?

I wonder if they will continue to maintain leasing the property now that their real estate and ski expansion project for the West Bowl appears to be dead in the water.

It wold nice if the whole plan came around too, not just the West Bowl. The lift out of the Sunbowl to North Peak and Night skiing on North Peak. Flying Goose under the lights would be great.

 

[Puck it]

More FYI from FSC meeting minutes-----

Looking into the future is very exciting. I have a copy of expansion plans for Ernie’s Haus on my desk. We
have listened to the comments from the membership and have developed plans to meet the needs of the club’s
growth with an expansion of the building. I assure you that our new club house will be the envy of anyone who
visits! It includes a wrap around second story deck and more than twice the amount of usable space for our
members and guests. At the same time, we are moving forward with plans to construct our new training/racing
venue at Cannon. This new trail will allow us to create athletic programs that have no limit. Speed training, long
GS training with terrain changes and the ability to train several disciplines at the same time on one venue will
all soon become reality for our athletes. Hosting high level national level races will be possible right here at
Cannon. Believe it! Our Board has engaged a professional fundraising organization that will help us with a
detailed and organized campaign to achieve our goals. Look for a more comprehensive announcement very
soon.​

Our

 

[deadheadskier]

I believe the current lease is through 2018. Tim Mueller will be pushing 70 at that point, so who knows whether or not the Muellers would continue. Triple Peaks/CNL, on the other hand, I would imagine would want to continue to lease the ski area, as it's been profitable.

True,

but there is Ethan as well, who will only be about 40. I believe there is a daughter as well, but not sure if she's involved with the family business.

 

[threecy]

but there is Ethan as well, who will only be about 40. I believe there is a daughter as well, but not sure if she's involved with the family business.

Isn't he at Crested Butte?

 

[deadheadskier]

Isn't he at Crested Butte?

Yes he is. So, I'd assume at some point he either takes Tim's reigns as head of the whole company or they sell it.

 

[jack97]

Peak looked at a variety of areas, open and closed, before choosing Crotched. Frankly, it remains to be seen if it was the best choice out of the areas they looked at.


I don't think that's accurate - the current quad lift line at Crotched is steeper than the quad lift line at Temple.

Yep.... peak resort did look at many options, Temple would have been a better choice in terms of road access.

If you're talking about Pluto Plunge which is under the quad lift at Crotched, that trail does not get alot traffic. I made alot of visits during their first year after they reopen and have been back at least 1-2 on a weekend every year. Only skiers who go down that trail are; good skiers, instructors and spandex warriors. I don't see a lot of parents taking their kids down that trail either. As good as Crotched's snowmaking capacity, the trail is expose to sun so after a thaw to freeze cycle, that trail usually has hardpack conditions. Given it has a long constant pitch..... lots of intermediate will pick up speed and will feel uncomfortable with their control on this trail and said conditions.

The rest of the hill does not have this pitch and are usually the most crowded sections.

 

[MadPadraic]

So, if the Cannon ski area operations were privately leased, said German and Japanese tourists wouldn't visit New Hampshire anymore?

They would most likely go to upstate New York instead.

 

[threecy]

Yep.... peak resort did look at many options, Temple would have been a better choice in terms of road access.

Temple had better road access, however the existing base area and parking situations were dreadful.

If you're talking about Pluto Plunge which is under the quad lift at Crotched, that trail does not get alot traffic. I made alot of visits during their first year after they reopen and have been back at least 1-2 on a weekend every year. Only skiers who go down that trail are; good skiers, instructors and spandex warriors. I don't see a lot of parents taking their kids down that trail either. As good as Crotched's snowmaking capacity, the trail is expose to sun so after a thaw to freeze cycle, that trail usually has hardpack conditions. Given it has a long constant pitch..... lots of intermediate will pick up speed and will feel uncomfortable with their control on this trail and said conditions.

The rest of the hill does not have this pitch and are usually the most crowded sections.

My point is the existing topography of Crotched is steeper than the existing topography of Temple, so I don't think pitch was as much of a concern.

Regardless, it would be interesting to see if Peak would bid on a Cannon lease. I suspect they need to get the IPO out of the way and retire some debt before considering taking on any more areas.

 

[ski_resort_observer]

In hindsight I think Peak, for alot of reasons, made a great choice in starting with Crotched for their first NE ski hill, especially vs Temple.

 

[jack97]

My point is the existing topography of Crotched is steeper than the existing topography of Temple, so I don't think pitch was as much of a concern.

Regardless, it would be interesting to see if Peak would bid on a Cannon lease.

That's where we differ.... pitch is very important given most areas will have long stretches of hardpack conditions. Man made snow overcomes the snow droughts or rain but the end product is still hardpack. I don't see intermediate skiers go down steep trail with hardpack conditions. When lifties pack up the chairs, I have hear complaints about various trails being very difficult. And yes.... even at Cannon, I hear passholders complained about the combination of the pitch and the trails being sketchy. During those times, they would say "it just needs about 8 inches of fresh stuff to make it fun". They put up with it because they can and I am sure the average skiers won't.

 

[AdironRider]

That's where we differ.... pitch is very important given most areas will have long stretches of hardpack conditions. Man made snow overcomes the snow droughts or rain but the end product is still hardpack. I don't see intermediate skiers go down steep trail with hardpack conditions. When lifties pack up the chairs, I have hear complaints about various trails being very difficult. And yes.... even at Cannon, I hear passholders complained about the combination of the pitch and the trails being sketchy. During those times, they would say "it just needs about 8 inches of fresh stuff to make it fun". They put up with it because they can and I am sure the average skiers won't.

Well thats a pretty negative view and can apply to pretty much any eastern ski area. Get over it, or move out west.

Crotched was the right call for Peak. Those PA hills are interesting as they sure do skier visits. Doesnt blue do something really high like 600,000? I thought I read that somewhere.

 

[jack97]

Well thats a pretty negative view and can apply to pretty much any eastern ski area. Get over it, or move out west.

umm..... the point was, New England steeps and hardpack is brutal on the average skier. Thats why a place like Loon will get more visits than Cannon. Peak Resort or any private place that wants to capture the sweet spot of the market needs to understand how to attract this segment.

It's not an accident that Sunapee and Okemo are successful. I would guess that the later has outperform (in terms of visit count) others ski areas nearby.

 

[threecy]

My point is the existing topography of Crotched is steeper than the existing topography of Temple, so I don't think pitch was as much of a concern.

That's where we differ.... pitch is very important given most areas will have long stretches of hardpack conditions.

I wasn't saying pitch is unimportant in selecting an area. What I was saying was that, considering Crotched is steeper than Temple, I don't think Peak Resorts turned down Temple because it was too steep.

 

[MadPadraic]

I wasn't saying pitch is unimportant in selecting an area. What I was saying was that, considering Crotched is steeper than Temple, I don't think Peak Resorts turned down Temple because it was too steep.

I think the argument of Crotched vs Temple is well made, but is there really much difference? I mean, was one area that topographically superior to the other? Neither one is really competing with Cannon et al.