Cannon Mountain...thoughts

[MadPadraic]

Present day Crotched quasi-summit quad: ~800 vertical feet
Former Temple summit quad: 452 vertical feet

They are both tiny. I don't understand your term "advanced ski areas," but neither of these are even remotely in competition with Cannon, and I can't see see them really being in competition with Sunapee either. You could consider them in being in competition with Gunstock from a "night skiing that's not WaWa" standpoint, but I think that's a very very weak case. Plus, if you draw a triangle, won't you find both of them south of it?

 

[MadPadraic]

Definitely thread drift, but if you look at the Peak Resort financials, you'll see Crotched isn't making money.

I just scanned through their IPO prospectus and I didn't see Crotched broken out on the income statement. If possible, would you point me in the right direction? However I did notice that all their debt seems to be on 10%..wow.

 

[threecy]

They are both tiny. I don't understand your term "advanced ski areas," but neither of these are even remotely in competition with Cannon, and I can't see see them really being in competition with Sunapee either. You could consider them in being in competition with Gunstock from a "night skiing that's not WaWa" standpoint, but I think that's a very very weak case. Plus, if you draw a triangle, won't you find both of them south of it?

I wasn't saying they were in direct competition with Cannon per se, but that they were/are in the overall market of the three government ski areas. Crotched, prior to be liquidated, was a major ski area. In fact, when Waterville was involved, it was advertised as the largest ski area in Southern New Hampshire.

Temple had been a major ski area until others passed it by. Still with two mountain faces and a quad chairlift, it wasn't exactly McIntyre or Whaleback. Had they continued after the quad installation with the next planned expansion, they would have had a larger advertised vertical drop.

 

[threecy]

I just scanned through their IPO prospectus and I didn't see Crotched broken out on the income statement. If possible, would you point me in the right direction? However I did notice that all their debt seems to be on 10%..wow.

Sorry, my post was wrong. What they do show about Crotched, though, is that it's $8M of debt at about 10% interest.

 

[MadPadraic]

I wasn't saying they were in direct competition with Cannon per se, but that they were/are in the overall market of the three government ski areas. Crotched, prior to be liquidated, was a major ski area. In fact, when Waterville was involved, it was advertised as the largest ski area in Southern New Hampshire.

Temple had been a major ski area until others passed it by. Still with two mountain faces and a quad chairlift, it wasn't exactly McIntyre or Whaleback. Had they continued after the quad installation with the next planned expansion, they would have had a larger advertised vertical drop.

I never skied the old crotched and my only experience with temple involves summer hikes. How did the old Crotched compare to the new one?

 

[deadheadskier]

I did ski old Crotched, King Ridge and Temple a few times a season each as a kid in the early 80s.

These were the areas my family learned to ski at. Once we progressed after a couple of seasons, we moved on to bigger areas, Sunapee, Cannon, Loon, Okemo.

To suggest that Crotched, King Ridge, and Temple were competing with Sunapee, Gunstock and Cannon for the same customers would be to suggest a Ford is marketing their Ford Focus against a Audi A4. Completely different markets.

The competitions for Crotched, King Ridge and Temple were Pat's Peak and King Ridge types areas. Probably more than anything, those areas fell victim to a similar sized area with better snowmaking to the south in Wachusett. Why drive almost 2 hours from Boston to go to Crotched, Temple or King Ridge when you've got a larger vert hill with better pitch and vastly superior snowmaking roughly half the drive away from Boston?

 

[threecy]

I did ski old Crotched, King Ridge and Temple a few times a season each as a kid in the early 80s.

These were the areas my family learned to ski at. Once we progressed after a couple of seasons, we moved on to bigger areas, Sunapee, Cannon, Loon, Okemo.

To suggest that Crotched, King Ridge, and Temple were competing with Sunapee, Gunstock and Cannon for the same customers would be to suggest a Ford is marketing their Ford Focus against a Audi A4. Completely different markets.

One could make the argument that Temple was being passed by due to not expanding their vertical, but Crotched and King Ridge were certainly in the same market at Sunapee and Gunstock. The only with more vertical at Gunstock than Crotched, would have been the 15-20 minute long summit lift ride. None of the heavily used lifts at Gunstock, prior to the HSQ, had more vertical than the Crotched quad.

The competitions for Crotched, King Ridge and Temple were Pat's Peak and King Ridge types areas. Probably more than anything, those areas fell victim to a similar sized area with better snowmaking to the south in Wachusett. Why drive almost 2 hours from Boston to go to Crotched, Temple or King Ridge when you've got a larger vert hill with better pitch and vastly superior snowmaking roughly half the drive away from Boston?

Vertical drop is often overestimated on ski area forums. If that were the such a factor, why would so many people drive to Sunday River, where the largest peak has about the same vertical drop as Cranmore?

 

[threecy]

I never skied the old crotched and my only experience with temple involves summer hikes. How did the old Crotched compare to the new one?

The new one has less vertical and probably half the skiable terrain (maps from NELSAP):

Crotched, just prior to closing:

Crotched, just prior to reopening:

 

[deadheadskier]

Vertical drop is often overestimated on ski area forums. If that were the such a factor, why would so many people drive to Sunday River, where the largest peak has about the same vertical drop as Cranmore?

um......

because they have 3 peaks with about the same vertical, 5 more with about 1000 vertical, almost 4 times the terrain and the place actually has some pitch? just a guess

 

[threecy]

um......

because they have 3 peaks with about the same vertical, 5 more with about 1000 vertical, almost 4 times the terrain and the place actually has some pitch? just a guess

Ah, so Sunday River is big for having multiple pods, but Crotched, Temple, and King Ridge weren't.

 

[deadheadskier]

holy cow

Sunday River has in excess of 600 acres of terrain, 18, lifts including 4 high speed quads, a chondola, 3 distinct large base lodges. By most measurements it's one of the top 5 largest ski areas in the east.

Crotched, Temple and King Ridge were much more comparable in size to say a Wachusett (with it's 3 terrain pods :lol than Gunstock or Sunapee even Cranmore now that you've included it in the argument.

Feeder Hills vs. mid-sized destination ski areas. Not the same at all.

 

[threecy]

Feeder Hills vs. mid-sized destination ski areas. Not the same at all.

So 1990 Crotched was a "feeder hill" but Sunapee and Gunstock were "destination ski areas?"

 

[deadheadskier]

yes

 

[threecy]

Crotched, Temple and King Ridge were much more comparable in size to say a Wachusett (with it's 3 terrain pods :lol than Gunstock or Sunapee even Cranmore now that you've included it in the argument.

Feeder Hills vs. mid-sized destination ski areas. Not the same at all.

So 1990 Crotched was a "feeder hill" but Sunapee and Gunstock were "destination ski areas?"

yes

So, these "feeder hills" are small areas filled with novice terrain and novice skiers?

 

[Puck it]

I need to get off. I am getting sick!!!!

 

[deadheadskier]

So, these "feeder hills" are small areas filled with novice terrain and novice skiers?

Threecy

I will say it again for you. Crotched, King Ridge and Temple a much closer in scope to areas like Wachusette and Pat's Peak than they were to Sunapee or Gunstock.

yes, primarily novice and intermediate terrain and a high percentage of lower skill level skiers.

 

[bobbutts]

Crotched/SR is a crazy comparison but the rest of these places all fit into the same category in my head. I think of these all as middle size areas south of the White Mtns.

Although my first day ever was at Crotched I did much of my learning at even smaller hills like Nashoba and Bradford. Once skill increased I pretty much skipped over these areas and started visiting places like Waterville, Loon, Killington, Sugarloaf.



I'd argue that there are truly small areas, like McIntyre, Nashoba, Bradford, etc
and then there are middle areas including
Crotched, Pat's, Gunstock, Sunapee, Wachusett...
Never went to Temple or King Ridge, so will skip trying to categorize those.

Sunapee sticks out as the only one with no night skiing.

 

[threecy]

Threecy

I will say it again for you. Crotched, King Ridge and Temple a much closer in scope to areas like Wachusette and Pat's Peak than they were to Sunapee or Gunstock.

yes, primarily novice and intermediate terrain and a high percentage of lower skill level skiers.

So Sunapee is more challenging and his a higher percentage of advanced skiers than Crotched?

 

[threecy]

Crotched/SR is a crazy comparison but the rest of these places all fit into the same category in my head.

The reason I brought up Sunday River is that it was considered by some to be a 'major' ski area, yet it certainly doesn't sport the top to bottom vertical of the other 'major' ski areas in New England, thus calling into question the theory that vertical is what makes a ski area 'major'

 

[deadheadskier]

So Sunapee is more challenging and his a higher percentage of advanced skiers than Crotched?

I need to get off. I am getting sick!!!!

yup