Cannon Mountain...thoughts

[threecy]

In the past 8 months I've been at Cannon well over 100 days. In the past 20 years I've been there hundreds and hundreds of times. I have never seen a sign that says that. I have hiked all aspects of Cannon (including the ski trails) during winter, spring, summer, and fall. I have skied Cannon before and after the lifts were spinning. I have walked past Cannon ski area employees and park maintenance crews while doing all of this.

I can't say that your "good authority" is definitely wrong.....but it sure seems it.

I believe the sign was posted adjacent the top terminal of the Tramway last summer. I generally avoid that area when I hike Cannon, so I don't have a firsthand account or photo, but I believe there are photos of it somewhere. I do know people who have been turned around, both top and bottom if I recall, by Cannon employees in recent years. Last I knew, the management there vigorously defends keeping the ski trails closed year round to foot traffic.

 

[AdironRider]

Your comments are rediculous. So youve never seen the sign, admit that you dont spend much time hiking up there anyways, but claim they vigorously defend the no hiking policy.

Ive hiked around Cannon plenty of times, all I got was a friendly wave from a lift mechanic up on a tower. Throw me on the list of people that think your full of shit.

 

[deadheadskier]

Again, my Southern New Hampshire theory is that - a theory. But, yes if true, one can absolutely 'have it both ways.' A poorly run business with bottomless pockets can indeed harm others. Again, I'm not trying to single out Cannon employees, but rather the whole aspect of trying to run a business within government.

No you can't have it both ways. If a private company increases skier visits by 100% like Sunapee has and you expect would happen at Cannon, they would be more competitive than poorly run State managed areas and Crotched, Temple et. al would've met their demise much faster. If anything those areas survived much longer than they should have due to the poorly run State areas. This really is 1+1=2 logic threecy. There's no arguing against it.

 

[Cannonball]

I believe the sign was posted adjacent the top terminal of the Tramway last summer. I generally avoid that area when I hike Cannon, so I don't have a firsthand account or photo, but I believe there are photos of it somewhere. I do know people who have been turned around, both top and bottom if I recall, by Cannon employees in recent years. Last I knew, the management there vigorously defends keeping the ski trails closed year round to foot traffic.

OK now I'm sure this is bogus. You're saying there is a sign AT THE TOP of the mountain that says "no hiking"? And you're saying that you know people who have been turned around from hiking AT THE TOP? W..T.......F?

 

[SIKSKIER]

As painfull as it is for me to agree with him,there are signs at the bottom of Gremlin and at the top that are posted in the summer that say no hiking on the ski trails.That said,I have never seen anybody stopped from hiking but there really is nobody sitting there looking for people either.I can certainly understand the reason at the top.There is a very fragile thin layer of topsoil and it gets beat up very easy.Take a look at the Rim trail as it runs to the Hi Cannon trail.The trail is all exposed granite worn through 1 foot of soil.

 

[threecy]

Your comments are rediculous. So youve never seen the sign, admit that you dont spend much time hiking up there anyways, but claim they vigorously defend the no hiking policy.

Ive hiked around Cannon plenty of times, all I got was a friendly wave from a lift mechanic up on a tower. Throw me on the list of people that think your full of shit.

How many times have you hiked Cannon in the past half decade?

No you can't have it both ways. If a private company increases skier visits by 100% like Sunapee has and you expect would happen at Cannon, they would be more competitive than poorly run State managed areas and Crotched, Temple et. al would've met their demise much faster. If anything those areas survived much longer than they should have due to the poorly run State areas. This really is 1+1=2 logic threecy. There's no arguing against it.

Do you really not understand this concept?

In a bad year, a government run ski area is covered and continues to operate, virtually regardless of the losses - no check bounce.

In a bad year, a privately run ski area still has to pay property taxes to both town and county. The ski area also has to pay its loans.

When was the last time a government run ski area was foreclosed or liquidated by a town?

 

[threecy]

OK now I'm sure this is bogus. You're saying there is a sign AT THE TOP of the mountain that says "no hiking"? And you're saying that you know people who have been turned around from hiking AT THE TOP? W..T.......F?

You are aware that they sell one-way Tram tickets, aren't you?

 

[deadheadskier]

How many times have you hiked Cannon in the past half decade?


Do you really not understand this concept?

In a bad year, a government run ski area is covered and continues to operate, virtually regardless of the losses - no check bounce.

In a bad year, a privately run ski area still has to pay property taxes to both town and county. The ski area also has to pay its loans.

When was the last time a government run ski area was foreclosed or liquidated by a town?

Senator threecy,

you conveniently leave out your argument that Sunapee is now doing 300K under private management. When it was state run, it was doing what? 150. Even during bad years, the Muellers are going over 225K skier visits.

300K is double the competition for those NELSAP areas. Your argument that better run vastly more popular ski areas would do less harm to the competition than poorly run State areas is 100% bogus.

Learn to say, "I am wrong" when you are. It's a valuable life skill.

 

[AdironRider]

How many times have you hiked Cannon in the past half decade?


Do you really not understand this concept?

In a bad year, a government run ski area is covered and continues to operate, virtually regardless of the losses - no check bounce.

In a bad year, a privately run ski area still has to pay property taxes to both town and county. The ski area also has to pay its loans.

When was the last time a government run ski area was foreclosed or liquidated by a town?

Easily 10 times. Dont have trip reports though. Cannon is my playground when Im back home.

And I would argue that saying no hiking on sensitive areas is pretty standard for the Whites, pretty much everything above tree line has those same warnings. Id also argue its vastly different from a vigourous no hiking policy and quarantining hundreds of acres of public land.

 

[Puck it]

There a dirt road to the top also. Do you think any body would be stopped on the road?

 

[threecy]

Your argument that better run vastly more popular ski areas would do less harm to the competition than poorly run State areas is 100% bogus.

Private sector ski area competing against private sector ski area = competition
Government skia area competing against private sector ski area = unfair competition

And I would argue that saying no hiking on sensitive areas is pretty standard for the Whites, pretty much everything above tree line has those same warnings. Id also argue its vastly different from a vigourous no hiking policy and quarantining hundreds of acres of public land.

Incorrect. There is no standard no hiking policy in the Whites, aside from small revegetation areas, endangered bird nesting areas, and Cannon Mountain ski area.

There a dirt road to the top also. Do you think any body would be stopped on the road?

According to the management at Cannon, yes.

 

[MadPadraic]

We must have completely different views of government. I view government as something to be of the people, by the people, for the people. We fund government with our taxes. Whether they spend the money today, or borrow against it, it is our tax dollars that funds it.

I agree with what you have said here, but it doesn't prove me wrong. Would you answer me this: define "the people" in your definition above.

 

[Puck it]

I have not found any reference to the hiking policy on he any NH state site. I would think that they would put this policy on the parks site if it was truly enforced.

Sunapee allows it hiking on the ski trails.

 

[AdironRider]

Private sector ski area competing against private sector ski area = competition
Government skia area competing against private sector ski area = unfair competition



Incorrect. There is no standard no hiking policy in the Whites, aside from small revegetation areas, endangered bird nesting areas, and Cannon Mountain ski area.


According to the management at Cannon, yes.

BS, hike up Mt Isolation and tell me you dont see signs warning you to stay on certain trails, no camping, etc. Its pretty standard info for most hiking in the Whites to prevent human destruction, Im willing to bet this is the same type of signage at Cannon. I personally have no seen any laws or posted signs, more along the lines of "be concious of the fragile environment around you", again pretty standard stuff for hiking in any national forest, let alone the Whites.

You state you've heard second hand accounts of people being turned away and havent seen or had any trouble yourself. Hardly enough to base an argument on. Ive hiked all over Cannon, all I got was a wave. Sikskier mentioned theres a sign at the bottom of Gremlin, but has never heard anybody getting turned away.

 

[deadheadskier]

Private sector ski area competing against private sector ski area = competition
Government skia area competing against private sector ski area = unfair competition
.

fair or unfair doesn't matter. what does is skier visits. you preach the virtues of private management bringing Sunapee to 300K visits, yet some how when it was doing 150K visits it had a worse impact on business levels at the nelsap areas. Sorry, it doesn't add up. You can't politic your way out of that simple fact.

 

[threecy]

BS, hike up Mt Isolation and tell me you dont see signs warning you to stay on certain trails, no camping, etc.

Mt. Isolation has "no camping" signs in revegetation areas along the hiking trails and in forest protection areas. There are no no-hiking signs posted on any of the trails to Mt. Isolation.

You state you've heard second hand accounts of people being turned away and havent seen or had any trouble yourself. Hardly enough to base an argument on. Ive hiked all over Cannon, all I got was a wave. Sikskier mentioned theres a sign at the bottom of Gremlin, but has never heard anybody getting turned away.

The folks I know who have been turned around and/or who reported the no hiking signs are respected figures in the hiking community - it's not made up. Ask the Cannon GM the official policy if you think this is inaccurate.

 

[threecy]

fair or unfair doesn't matter.

If you don't care about government competing against the people who pay for it, then you and I will likely never agree on anything fiscal.

what does is skier visits. you preach the virtues of private management bringing Sunapee to 300K visits, yet some how when it was doing 150K visits it had a worse impact on business levels at the nelsap areas. Sorry, it doesn't add up. You can't politic your way out of that simple fact.

Skier visits != ticket sales and != revenue and != profit.

Sunapee is not at 300K skier visits yet by the way.

 

[AdironRider]

Mt. Isolation has "no camping" signs in revegetation areas along the hiking trails and in forest protection areas. There are no no-hiking signs posted on any of the trails to Mt. Isolation.



The folks I know who have been turned around and/or who reported the no hiking signs are respected figures in the hiking community - it's not made up. Ask the Cannon GM the official policy if you think this is inaccurate.

Respected figures in the hiking community? Geez you are stretching things here. What makes someone a respected member of the hiking community exactly? Do they have perfect walking form or something? Ive hiked every 4000 footer in NH and all of the High Peaks in the ADK and don't consider myself a respected member of the hiking community. Get off your high horse. You contantly think youre better than everyone else so your opinion must be right.

This is the second year you've gone on and on about how messed up things are with Cannon. Hate to break it to you, but you seem to be the only one who cares.

 

[deadheadskier]

"respected members of the hiking community" = more valid opinion than someone who's owned real estate at the base of Cannon for decades and never had an issue hiking the trails.

got it

 

[deadheadskier]

If you don't care about government competing against the people who pay for it, then you and I will likely never agree on anything fiscal.



Skier visits != ticket sales and != revenue and != profit.

Sunapee is not at 300K skier visits yet by the way.

Whether a state run area has to pay taxes or is kept afloat during lean years has no bearing on those private businesses. What matters to them is the number of paying customers using their facilities. If privately run areas are doing MORE business than they were doing as State areas, that means less business is going to go to those nelsap areas. Pretty simple math. Please revisit Business 101. Hell even Arithmetic.