Cannon Mountain...thoughts

[jack97]

How does Senator Morse, from Salem, have any sort of monetary interest in this?

Again, you have taken this out of context...... the original statement was respect to local business owners wanting to privatized. I reference a 2008 newspaper article where a motel owner believes that his occupancy rate would increase due to privatization. Again....past newspaper articles have cited other local business owners wanting the privatize so that there business interest would thrive.

Republicans control both the Senate and Reps... privatization is dogmatic and follows their party line.

The numbers presented showing Cannon as 'profitable for 4 years' are questionable to say the least...this was cited on the State Senate floor Wednesday.

haha...this is a Jedi mind trick...... the numbers deceive you, do they? The bigger issue would be that the accounting and audit process should be in question. Time would be well spent in find these discrepancy and ensuring uniform accounting procedures. Wait.... maybe we should privatize that as well....

 

[bobbutts]

The irony and shame to all of this is that a private company will have to make Mittersill a Loon clone and tame the rest of the mtn just to get the visit count high.

You're totally making up this convert Mitt to Loon thing. Scare tactics and a straw man argument.

 

[jack97]

You're totally making up this convert Mitt to Loon thing. Scare tactics and a straw man argument.

Just my best guess....

But when proponents for privatization are constantly comparing Loon and Sunapee visit count numbers to Cannon's performance.... what do you think a private operator will do?


Here's another irony, I don't visit Cannon as much as I use to. It's has gotten tame and the moguls at zommer and rocket have trash lines..... its what I would call GS bumps. Even the locals has stated the same..... they think K Mart has better bumps b/c of the types of skiers K Mart brings in. Even with the initiatives that JD will bring in will not interest me.... well maybe if they keep Mittersill more backcountry like.

 

[UVSHTSTRM]

Just my best guess....

But when proponents for privatization are constantly comparing Loon and Sunapee visit count numbers to Cannon's performance.... what do you think a private operator will do?


Here's another irony, I don't visit Cannon as much as I use to. It's has gotten tame and the moguls at zommer and rocket have trash lines..... its what I would call GS bumps. Even the locals has stated the same..... they think K Mart has better bumps b/c of the types of skiers K Mart brings in. Even with the initiatives that JD will bring in will not interest me.... well maybe if they keep Mittersill more backcountry like.

Can somebody explain to me how Mittersill is even remotely considered backcountry? It's got a lift, trails, and woods in between the trails. It also seems like snowmaking may be in it's future with so much increased skier traffic. Sounds like a regular old ski slope to me, no? Also people have stated that they are worried it will be turned into Loon, this would lead me to believe it is not all that steep? Although this my sound like a negative statement it is not, just trying to figure out what it is really like.

 

[Cannonball]

Can somebody explain to me how Mittersill is even remotely considered backcountry? It's got a lift, trails, and woods in between the trails. It also seems like snowmaking may be in it's future with so much increased skier traffic. Sounds like a regular old ski slope to me, no?

Mittersill is no longer even remotely considered backcountry.

Also people have stated that they are worried it will be turned into Loon, this would lead me to believe it is not all that steep?

Mittersill is not all that steep.

 

[UVSHTSTRM]

Mittersill is no longer even remotely considered backcountry.



Mittersill is not all that steep.

That is what I thought, but the way some people talk around here you would think otherwise.

 

[jack97]

That is what I thought, but the way some people talk around here you would think otherwise.

Mittersill is no longer even remotely considered backcountry.



Mittersill is not all that steep.

:-? ..... I make a statement paraphrasing JD by using "backcountry like" and then it gets called backcountry.

My take on this "backcountry like" is that would be simular to Mad River Glen where they leave the trails alone and only groom the interconnecting trails. BTW, Mad River Glen is not that steep, what makes this challenging is that they don't groom most of the trails.

As I said, what JD has done is made Cannon a value proposition for the consumers. What they will do to trails at Mittersill and Hardscrabble will either make me go more or make me stop going. But the place is still great value.

 

[FridayHiker]

There is lots of backcountry at Mittersill, and some of it IS steep. Mittersill proper is not backcountry, just a different sort of skiing.

 

[threecy]

Threecy, in light of management changes being fairly recent at Cannon, I'd be much more interested in what the profit/loss figures are for the past four years, not since 2000. Can you direct me to those figures?

I have not been able to obtain FY10 ("missing"). FY11 is still in progress. Cannon's ski school lost $135K in FY08 and $99K in FY09, two of the alleged profit years for the ski area.

What sort of "benefits" are you speaking about, and how do they compare to what ski instructors get at other mountains?

I don't have the detail behind what the benefits are, just the cost.

 

[threecy]

Mittersill is no longer even remotely considered backcountry.

Except of course by Cannon, which calls it the "Mittersill Backcountry Area"

 

[FridayHiker]

Except of course by Cannon, which calls it the "Mittersill Backcountry Area"

As noted, there is lots and lots of backcountry at Mittersill. I don't have an issue with the nomenclature. If you don't know where to look, befriend a local and ask them to take you for a few runs. It's truly astounding.

 

[riverc0il]

haha...this is a Jedi mind trick...... the numbers deceive you, do they? The bigger issue would be that the accounting and audit process should be in question. Time would be well spent in find these discrepancy and ensuring uniform accounting procedures. Wait.... maybe we should privatize that as well....

Threecy has a VERY legitimate point here. If Cannon is posting profitable numbers because they are not including capital expenses and depreciation in their income statements, then the GM stating that Cannon is profitable without considering those numbers in disingenuous. I don't care how we as individuals feel about the lease, pro or con, but that is a HUGE issue, IMO, even as a lease opposer.

 

[riverc0il]

As noted, there is lots and lots of backcountry at Mittersill. I don't have an issue with the nomenclature. If you don't know where to look, befriend a local and ask them to take you for a few runs. It's truly astounding.

It is astounding. But it is not BC. Slackcountry maybe.

 

[x10003q]

Threecy has a VERY legitimate point here. If Cannon is posting profitable numbers because they are not including capital expenses and depreciation in their income statements, then the GM stating that Cannon is profitable without considering those numbers in disingenuous. I don't care how we as individuals feel about the lease, pro or con, but that is a HUGE issue, IMO, even as a lease opposer.

I am just guessing - but maybe since there are no shareholders and no tax ramifications there really is no need to account for capital expenses and depreciation. In NYS Gore is not responsible for getting the money to add lifts. ORDA is responsible for borrowing or getting grants. Gore's statements are basically money in and money out. I do not know how it works in NH.

 

[riverc0il]

I am just guessing - but maybe since there are no shareholders and no tax ramifications there really is no need to account for capital expenses and depreciation. In NYS Gore is not responsible for getting the money to add lifts. ORDA is responsible for borrowing or getting grants. Gore's statements are basically money in and money out. I do not know how it works in NH.

Right. Practically, there is no need because the funds are handled through the state. But if those expenses are not accounted for in Cannon's bottom line, then it is disingenuous to say that the area operates at a profit (but if only not accounting for big capital expenses).

Can anyone verify if this is accurate? Can someone cite where the Double install went financially and what depreciation effects would have had on Cannon's bottom line?

 

[Cannonball]

Threecy has a VERY legitimate point here. If Cannon is posting profitable numbers because they are not including capital expenses and depreciation in their income statements, then the GM stating that Cannon is profitable without considering those numbers in disingenuous. I don't care how we as individuals feel about the lease, pro or con, but that is a HUGE issue, IMO, even as a lease opposer.

"IF" is the key word.

Threecy has made this claim but not backed it up. IF it's true it's an issue. Although, as others have pointed out, the state is operating as a large entity looking towards an overall bottom line. In these cases it's often appropriate to not be restrained by looking at specific product lines as 'stand alone'. Capital improvements are surely going into the accounting somewhere and it MIGHT be reasonable to roll them in with other costs in the larger accounting. Not as a way to hide it, but simply as a way to efficiently appropriate funds.

I'm sure this will sound like a huge red flag to Threecy. But it's completely appropriate to to handle accounting on scales that suit the business. Large private ski corporations with multiple holdings will often cover improvement costs at one area with the profits from another. OR they will show a loss at one area (due to improvements) but will cover it in the bottom line with profits from another.

While micro-accounting helps a business (or state, or family, etc) understand where the money comes and goes on a small scale, macro-accounting is equally important so that you can make the most efficient use of your money.

Example: I currently own two businesses. Business #1 has very high overhead but has the potential for very high earnings. Business #2 has very low overhead and very modest earning potential. I frequently take the earnings from Business #2 to help make the capital investments in Business #1 to improve my long-term bottom line. If I always isolated the two business Business #1 would show big losses in some years and a myopic accounting perspective would say "dump it". But overall, it's the real earner.

 

[jack97]

Right. Practically, there is no need because the funds are handled through the state. But if those expenses are not accounted for in Cannon's bottom line, then it is disingenuous to say that the area operates at a profit (but if only not accounting for big capital expenses).

Can anyone verify if this is accurate? Can someone cite where the Double install went financially and what depreciation effects would have had on Cannon's bottom line?

I would assume Cannon's numbers has gone through the state's audit division. That's what most business would do.... have there numbers checked by an independent source to ensure quality in their accounting process.

I figure for the past 5-6 years, Cannon has been on the cross-hair by the Republicans for privatization, any "creative" bookkeeping would have trigger some sort in legislative hearing by now. The best they can muster is "questionable"... showing the numbers would be a better argument. If they had definitive proof, I would favor privatization.


Mittersill looks sweet.....

 

[Geoff]

BTW, Mad River Glen is not that steep, what makes this challenging is that they don't groom most of the trails.

False.

Mad River Glen is as steep as anything in the Vermont 250+" snow belt. That makes it steeper than anything lift-serviced in New Hampshire where they get much less natural snow.

 

[Cannonball]

False.

Mad River Glen is as steep as anything in the Vermont 250+" snow belt. That makes it steeper than anything lift-serviced in New Hampshire where they get much less natural snow.

I wasn't completely on board with Jack's original statement about MRG until you posted this map. This map makes MRG look far less steep than I remember it. If you have access, maybe you can post the Cannon/Mittersill map for the sake of comparison as related to this discussion? Thanks.

 

[riverc0il]

I would assume Cannon's numbers has gone through the state's audit division. That's what most business would do.... have there numbers checked by an independent source to ensure quality in their accounting process.

The point has nothing to do with accounting accuracy and everything to do with spin. JD wrote that Cannon has been profitable recently. But would it be if capital expenses were on Cannon's books rather than the state's books? In other words, if they operated like a non-state run ski area and held profitability to the same standards. I am still awaiting a verification that this is indeed the case as threecy suggests. It is pretty damning of JD's statement if it is the case.