Cannon Mountain...thoughts

[deadheadskier]

I don't think the Muellers were given a fair chance at their plans. New Hampshire's loss.

In regard to them taking on another operation, I think they showed their hand when they acquired Crested Butte (which I believe came to fruition when they were denied access to their privately held property at Sunapee). They don't spend much time out here anymore relatively from what I've heard through the grapevine.

Muellers bought the Butte in 2004. I didn't think the condo project denial at Sunapee happened that long ago, but perhaps I'm wrong.

As for why they don't spend much time out here; their son Ethan works at Crested. I know he was Director of Mountain Ops at one point. Maybe he's now the GM. We graduated the same year from UVM in the Recreation Management Program, which is the University's closest program to resembling Resort Management. Class was 90% ski bums. Lots of jealousy towards Ethan in the class as he clearly was going to have a great job someday. :lol:

I agree with your thoughts that it's New Hampshire and the local economy around Sunapee's loss that the Muellers plan wasn't allowed to go through. I grew up an Okemo skier. Skied 40 days or more a season there from 1984 through 1994. The big transformation years for the mountain and local community. My folks had a home there from 88 through 2003 and still rent a place every summer as retirees. Ludlow would be Londonderry VT and Okemo, Magic Mountain without what the Muellers did there. Before I get lynched, I like the type of terrain and experience Magic offers more than Okemo. But from an economic perspective, Okemo is a far better business for Ludlow's economy than Magic is for Londonderry's. If what they were proposing went through at Sunapee, it would have the potential to increase the area from a 300K skier visit mountain to perhaps 400K. I'd imagine most of the increased skier visits would be stolen from VT. That would be a good thing for the NH economy.

 

[MadPadraic]

That's going to take a bunch of capital up front. Is nearby Loon or WV profitable? Is there some financial benefits to leasing from the state of NH vs normal private ownership?

There is a 2007 report from Dartmouth's B-school that makes the following 2 claims:

* Loon has been profitable 38 out of the last 40 years (through 2007)
* Loon's real estate actually loses money but on hill operations make up for it.

(By the way, anyone who claims that ski resorts can only make money through condo sales should go read Vail's 10-K).

Boyne seems pretty with it, so I suspect that Loon's trend has continued.

As per Cannon: I love it the way it is. I love the Mittersill lift. I don't care that some people are more hardcore and did Mittersill before me.. I don't like the new bar as much as the old one, but I REALLY don't want it leased out.

 

[MadPadraic]

Loon and Cannon are very close to each other, share many of the same lodging properties and at least from my unscientific skier counts when visiting both regularly, Loon has far more skiers/visitors (all paying more) vs Cannon.

Better at Loon:
Lifts, grooming, snowmaking, parks, lodging, intermediate terrain, easier drive in bad weather, able to expand

Better at Cannon:
expert/natural terrain, natural snow, price, history/vibe, views

I guess the question to me is how can they grab some more of Loon's visits.

Better at Loon: on mountain food: wild game stew or that Jamaican place at the top.

Cannon has better (if fewer) intermediate runs. Name me a single better blue run at Loon than Upper Cannon? (Hint, you can't b/c upper cannon is the single most awesome blue run in existence ). Also, Gary's is better than that whole blue ox pod at Loon. This isn't to hate on Loon, but just to point out what intermediate stuff Cannon has is superb.

As for Loon, ripsaw or ripcord or ripwhatever doesn't get enough respect.

 

[Cannonball]

(Hint, you can't b/c upper cannon is the single most awesome blue run in existence ).

Gospel. although Ravine.....

Also, Gary's is better than that whole blue ox pod at Loon. This isn't to hate on Loon, but just to point out what intermediate stuff Cannon has is superb.

Amen

 

[threecy]

Muellers bought the Butte in 2004. I didn't think the condo project denial at Sunapee happened that long ago, but perhaps I'm wrong.

They had run into major roadblocks before then...they abandoned the East Bowl plans circa 2000 and were making the move west by late 2001 (their P&S on Steamboat was in January 2002). While they had met opposition well before then, they ran into a brick wall in Concord after the 2004 election.

 

[riverc0il]

Name me a single better blue run at Loon than Upper Cannon? (Hint, you can't b/c upper cannon is the single most awesome blue run in existence ).

All of them. Upper Cannon with man made snow, grooming, and a ton of traffic suuuuucks. Sorry, I am as old school as they come, but a good trail cut without good conditions does not make for a good trail. Upper Ravine handles the traffic better and thus skis much better despite being twice as wide and having half as many curves. Upper Cannon is one of the few trails at Cannon I honestly avoid unless I am skiing with someone that drags me down it.

Now... bring on the lynching from the rest of the Cannon faithful. :beer:

 

[Cannonball]

All of them. Upper Cannon with man made snow, grooming, and a ton of traffic suuuuucks. Sorry, I am as old school as they come, but a good trail cut without good conditions does not make for a good trail. Upper Ravine handles the traffic better and thus skis much better despite being twice as wide and having half as many curves. Upper Cannon is one of the few trails at Cannon I honestly avoid unless I am skiing with someone that drags me down it.

Now... bring on the lynching from the rest of the Cannon faithful. :beer:

 

[ski_resort_observer]

There is a 2007 report from Dartmouth's B-school that makes the following 2 claims:

* Loon has been profitable 38 out of the last 40 years (through 2007)
* Loon's real estate actually loses money but on hill operations make up for it.

(By the way, anyone who claims that ski resorts can only make money through condo sales should go read Vail's 10-K).

Boyne seems pretty with it, so I suspect that Loon's trend has continued.

As per Cannon: I love it the way it is. I love the Mittersill lift. I don't care that some people are more hardcore and did Mittersill before me.. I don't like the new bar as much as the old one, but I REALLY don't want it leased out.

Thanks for sharing but being profitable could be they made $10 tho being profitable is better than losing money. Is being profitable in Tuck's report you cite after all costs and expenses or just the EBIDTA, basically gross profit?. 2007 is just before the "big recession" hit, it's a diferent world now especially in regards to real estate.

If you build 100 condos in 2005 and sell out by 2006, that rev is not showing up in 2009, it's history. I don't think you can make any ski industry-wide claims just by what Loon did or Vail Resorts. Remember Vail Resorts, the publically traded company(MTN) includes several ski resorts. The devil is in the details. I read this little gem recently. Big companies spend alot of time and effort to put a positive spin on things.

Broomfield-based Vail Resorts says skier visits at its six resorts are up from last season.
"The owner of Vail and Beaver Creek resorts said Thursday that skier visits this winter were up 3.9 percent from last season, if the numbers are adjusted as if it had owned recently acquired Northstar-at-Tahoe resort last season as well as this season".

I think everyone knows that the real estate is flat, not much is selling. If your not getting strong rev from your mountain Opps your probably on pretty shaky ground right now. If you have condos built but not selling even worse. On the plus side having a good snow year definately helps and from what I see every region in the US got good snow this year.

When it comes to real estate it's all about location, location. Alot of resorts are bumping up the summer/fall activities, not a new concept but I think the recession has put extra importance on developing this revenue source. Ziplines are popping up everywhere, more resorts are putting together summer camp programs.

I think Cannon and the rest of the White Mtn region has always been busy in the summer. All the resorts there work hard on getting people to come to their place. lots come for the shopping in NC. On a nice weekend the whole area is hopping with people. I think an expanded Cannon can do well much to the chagrin of the hardcore folks who like it just the way it is.

 

[MadPadraic]

Thanks for sharing but being profitable could be they made $10 tho being profitable is better than losing money. Is being profitable in Tuck's report you cite after all costs and expenses or just the EBIDTA, basically gross profit?. 2007 is just before the "big recession" hit, it's a diferent world now especially in regards to real estate.

The report didn't say, and I couldn't find anymore data, but 40 years is a large sample size. The question was whether or not Loon was profitable, and I did the best I could to answer it based on a simple google.

If you build 100 condos in 2005 and sell out by 2006, that rev is not showing up in 2009, it's history. I don't think you can make any ski industry-wide claims just by what Loon did or Vail Resorts. Remember Vail Resorts, the publically traded company(MTN) includes several ski resorts. The devil is in the details. I read this little gem recently. Big companies spend alot of time and effort to put a positive spin on things.

Broomfield-based Vail Resorts says skier visits at its six resorts are up from last season.
"The owner of Vail and Beaver Creek resorts said Thursday that skier visits this winter were up 3.9 percent from last season, if the numbers are adjusted as if it had owned recently acquired Northstar-at-Tahoe resort last season as well as this season".

I think everyone knows that the real estate is flat, not much is selling. If your not getting strong rev from your mountain Opps your probably on pretty shaky ground right now. If you have condos built but not selling even worse. On the plus side having a good snow year definately helps and from what I see every region in the US got good snow this year.

Here's my larger point. The ski resort industry has consistently claimed they only make money from real estate. IIIRC, Vail has also made this claim. However, even a cursory investigation into the few income statements that we have access to shows that this simply isn't true. The point here is related to Cannon (or any other non-condo mountain): people on this forum claim that Cannon can't ever be a huge roaring success without a real estate development. Available data doesn't support this.

Now to take this in a different direction....Cannon is a treasure for New Hampshire's residents (and visitors). It provides access to big mountain skiing at a greatly reduced price to NH residents and state employees. It also provides a different experience than the other I-93 resorts. In general it's existence should be to maximize fun for it's patrons rather than maximize profits. Note, I'm not saying that it should be intentionally run at a loss, but it shouldn't be run with the sole intent of maximizing state revenue.

 

[MadPadraic]

All of them. Upper Cannon with man made snow, grooming, and a ton of traffic suuuuucks. Sorry, I am as old school as they come, but a good trail cut without good conditions does not make for a good trail. Upper Ravine handles the traffic better and thus skis much better despite being twice as wide and having half as many curves. Upper Cannon is one of the few trails at Cannon I honestly avoid unless I am skiing with someone that drags me down it.

Now... bring on the lynching from the rest of the Cannon faithful. :beer:

I think you just made my point for me, but I'm not entirely sure....

 

[riverc0il]

I think you just made my point for me, but I'm not entirely sure....

Huh? I suggested that every blue run at Loon was better than Upper Cannon and suggested it is one of the worst blues around and one that I have to be dragged down. Unless I missed some irony in your post about it being the best trail in existence???

 

[MadPadraic]

Huh? I suggested that every blue run at Loon was better than Upper Cannon and suggested it is one of the worst blues around and one that I have to be dragged down. Unless I missed some irony in your post about it being the best trail in existence???

You said "all of them" in what appeared to be a rhetorical manner. You then complained about grooming and snow making on Upper Cannon, but no one can seriously think that you meant to say that Loon avoids snow making and grooming, can they? Furthermore, you implied that the very things (other than slope) which make Upper Cannon a blue rather than black are not to your liking. This indicates that you don't appreciate blue trails. Hence, you supported my point.

By the way, I've never found UC to be very crowded, and I frequent the trail on weekends. I also contend that it holds snow very well b/c it is narrow enough that you get huge piles on the sides and in the turn banks. I also suspect that you tolerate New England hard pack more than me, so we may experience a very different trial. (I rarely go if there isn't lots of fresh snow or spring conditions.)

 

[AdironRider]

Huh? I suggested that every blue run at Loon was better than Upper Cannon and suggested it is one of the worst blues around and one that I have to be dragged down. Unless I missed some irony in your post about it being the best trail in existence???

I think you went a little overboard with the Upper Cannon comment though as well. You ski the east, icy manmade, crowded slopes are the norm pretty much everywhere at some point during the year.

Its a sweet trail, and when conditions are good I would argue its one of the best blues in the East no question.

 

[riverc0il]

Your Question: Name me a single better blue run at Loon than Upper Cannon?
My Answer: All of them.

My point about the man mad snow, grooming, and crowds is that the trail would be better without any of these features (which it lacked when the trail was originally cut--there is a reason modern trails that handle snow making, grooming, and high traffic are all a lot wider). You might not read all of my posts on AZ, so I can understand your thinking I don't like blue trails. But I went on to compliment Upper Ravine as being a better run than Upper Cannon......

Fact is, I love a great blue cruiser just as much as the next guy and I can appreciate them for what they are. Here is the problem with Upper Cannon though: even on a light traffic day, 2/3 of the trail is scraped to the groomer tracks and it becomes a total luge run. So I ski that trail by skiing the edges where the loose snow gets pushed... which is normally great but everytime you start building up a rhythm, the trail turns and you need to cross the scraped snow to get to the loose stuff again. It is a giant tease. Great trail if you are the first one down. I think it would be epic as a bump trail.

@AR: While I may ski New England hard pack on icy manmade crowded slopes at some time during the year, I hardly seek out that type of punishment when other trails on the same mountain on the same day ski packed powder.

 

[MadPadraic]

Your Question: Name me a single better blue run at Loon than Upper Cannon?
My Answer: All of them.

That's why I can't take your post seriously. Though maybe you do hate it that much.

Here is the problem with Upper Cannon though: even on a light traffic day, 2/3 of the trail is scraped to the groomer tracks and it becomes a total luge run. So I ski that trail by skiing the edges where the loose snow gets pushed... which is normally great but everytime you start building up a rhythm, the trail turns and you need to cross the scraped snow to get to the loose stuff again.

This may just be a difference in style. You are an expert skier, but I'm an average snowboarder (above average in soft snow, and well below in hard conditions). One of the reasons I love upper cannon is because after the middle has been skied off, the snow piles on the side are deep enough to turn on. The turns are so frequent that you can ride the entire trail and only turn with the trail's natural turns! In this case, you never have to cross the cardboard middle. However, if you do want to switch sides, it holds a nice edge.

 

[ski_resort_observer]

You ski the east, icy manmade, crowded slopes are the norm pretty much everywhere at some point during the year.
.

If you ski the west all it takes is a couple of weeks of no new snow, no snowmaking, crowded slopes and your skiing boilplate. Icy slopes can happen anywhere, not just in the east. I broke my shoulder at JH when it was dust on an icy crust on pretty much the entire mountain.

 

[threecy]

It provides access to big mountain skiing at a greatly reduced price to NH residents and state employees.

Really. I am a NH resident/taxpayer. How do I take advantage of this "greatly reduced price" without taking a day off work?

 

[mediamogul]

If you ski the west all it takes is a couple of weeks of no new snow, no snowmaking, crowded slopes and your skiing boilplate. Icy slopes can happen anywhere, not just in the east. I broke my shoulder at JH when it was dust on an icy crust on pretty much the entire mountain.

Just goes to show that any trail is crappy under crappy conditions.

 

[AdironRider]

If you ski the west all it takes is a couple of weeks of no new snow, no snowmaking, crowded slopes and your skiing boilplate. Icy slopes can happen anywhere, not just in the east. I broke my shoulder at JH when it was dust on an icy crust on pretty much the entire mountain.

You lived out here. You know where these conditions happen more.

 

[bobbutts]

Cannon has a few intermediate trails with personality.. Loon has a whole mountain with wall to wall intermediate trails. Point given for Cannon's best being better in ways vs. Loon's, but I still standby Loon being the better blue hill. Maybe one of the problems for intermediates (also may save these runs from complete scrapage) is that the access to them is not all that good (no HSQ laps)