uphillklimber
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Deep powder skiing
- Thread starter uphillklimber
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KevinF
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First, "deep powder" out west has two forms. There's the stuff in Colorado, Utah, Montana, etc. that is absolutely "dry". You can't pack the stuff into snowballs. Pick up a handfull of it, breathe on it, and it will all blow away. What does this mean? It provides very minimal resistance to you as you go through it. You don't get that "I'm trapped" sensation that you were experiencing at Attitash.
The deep snow on the California, Oregon, Washington, British Columbia coastline can be very glop-like, pretty much like what we get around here. They do occassionally (suppossedly) get bone-dry deep snow, but I didn't see it!
How to ski the stuff:
1) Wide skis definitely help.
2) Take a path through the snow that is much steeper / more direct then you normally would. All that snow is going to slow you down, so an almost straight-down-the-mountain path works pretty well
3) Refine your technique on good old fashioned New England ice so that you can ski with minimal skidding. The movements that lead to carving (i.e., the anti-thesis of skidding) also work in deep snow. If you can ski ice well, you can most definitely ski powder. There's no shortage of ice-skiing practice days around here.
The deep snow on the California, Oregon, Washington, British Columbia coastline can be very glop-like, pretty much like what we get around here. They do occassionally (suppossedly) get bone-dry deep snow, but I didn't see it!
How to ski the stuff:
1) Wide skis definitely help.
2) Take a path through the snow that is much steeper / more direct then you normally would. All that snow is going to slow you down, so an almost straight-down-the-mountain path works pretty well
3) Refine your technique on good old fashioned New England ice so that you can ski with minimal skidding. The movements that lead to carving (i.e., the anti-thesis of skidding) also work in deep snow. If you can ski ice well, you can most definitely ski powder. There's no shortage of ice-skiing practice days around here.
I can remember one day...January 2000 up at Jay--by far the deepest day thus far in my 15-year skiing career. It was knee deep in places and beyond and I learned to ski powder really quickly. Echoing the previous writer, take a nice steep and direct route for the best results. It is a lot of fun. (The same can be said for spring conditions which slow you down--head steep since you get resistence). That day only Stateside was open, but that was enough. Wind closed the rest of the area.
I've also had my share of Freshies at Burke as well including one day in February 2003 when it was forecast to rain and I went up to find 6-8 inches of pow instead. The sides of East Bowl were sweet. 8)
First Tracks
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My first response would reflect a portion of the two previous posters' advice: stay more in the fall line. Finish your turns less, i.e. initiate your next turn more quickly after your skis cross the fall line. The deeper snow will provide more resistance to control your speed more than if it were not present, allowing you to take a more direct line. It's the first lesson any burgeoning powder skier needs to learn. If you turn too far across the hill you not only lose your momentum, but you instinctively begin to apply more pressure to the outside ski.
Which leads me to my second point: On hard, groomed snow traditional technique dictates that you apply the vast majority of the pressuring forces to the inside edge of your outside/downhill ski. Yes, the advent of shaped skis has led to the concept of carving on the inside edges of both skis, but most of us don't ski that way, anyway -- we obtain edge hold by pressuring the inside edge of the downhill ski. In powder, however, that won't work -- the unweighted inside ski will have a mind of its own, alternately submarining and porpoising, and wandering from side to side. In powder, think of both skis as a single platform, and apply the weight more evenly at approximately 60% the outside/downhill ski and 40% to the inside/uphill ski.
Finally, my third point: exaggerate your unweighting. It'll feel at first like you're literally bouncing up and down, but you're not. Get into a rhythm so that the rebound of the ski assists in your unweighting effort. Make sure, however, that when unweighting you resist any attempt to manually turn your skis via rotation. The unweighting is merely providing the ski with the opportunity to initate the new turn in the new direction. Just like skiing on any other surface, skiing powder is all about letting the ski do the work. If you feel like powder's a workout, you're not letting the ski do the work. When done properly, skiing powder is nearly effortless.
Now go watch what I'm talking about. Click on over to www.SkiMovies.com (a division of FTO) and watch a few select videos online. In particular, I recommend for your purposes the "Utah Interconnect" video for deep western low moisture content fluff; "December to Remember" from last winter's early season blizzard at Jiminy Peak to see the technique demonstrated in New England concrete; "Lost Trail Powder Mountain," "Northern Rockies Ahead," "Snowed Up At Snoqualmie" and "Vision," all for some of Jay Silveira's unique style using his uphill ski to drive turns a la Scot Schmidt from the 1980s ski movies (dang, I can't do that!); and a few of the scenes in the film Northern Lights from Montana and Wyoming (I'm the goober with the goatee in the purplish jacket, although I'm not the best example of stellar technique). Mike Bernstein, also appearing in the Northern Lights video, gives a much better example of technique in the deep scenes from Bridger Bowl that appear later in the film. The shots of him skiing at Bridger actually ended up on The Weather Channel that evening after the B-roll was uploaded to the satellite. Me? I ended up on the Weather Channel's cutting room floor. :angry: Then again, it probably had something to do with the fact that I was skiing like a gomer that day. I thought for sure that Bridger was going to charge me extra for bringing so much of their snow home with me. :roll:
Just remember, the only way to get good at it is to do it with some frequency. In the northeast, the northern tier of the Green Mountain spine in Vermont (Sugarbush, MRG, Stowe, Smuggs, Bolton and Jay), maybe even extending to Sutton in Québec, statistically provides the best odds of dining on powder. Otherwise, book those trips out west regularly.
Which leads me to my second point: On hard, groomed snow traditional technique dictates that you apply the vast majority of the pressuring forces to the inside edge of your outside/downhill ski. Yes, the advent of shaped skis has led to the concept of carving on the inside edges of both skis, but most of us don't ski that way, anyway -- we obtain edge hold by pressuring the inside edge of the downhill ski. In powder, however, that won't work -- the unweighted inside ski will have a mind of its own, alternately submarining and porpoising, and wandering from side to side. In powder, think of both skis as a single platform, and apply the weight more evenly at approximately 60% the outside/downhill ski and 40% to the inside/uphill ski.
Finally, my third point: exaggerate your unweighting. It'll feel at first like you're literally bouncing up and down, but you're not. Get into a rhythm so that the rebound of the ski assists in your unweighting effort. Make sure, however, that when unweighting you resist any attempt to manually turn your skis via rotation. The unweighting is merely providing the ski with the opportunity to initate the new turn in the new direction. Just like skiing on any other surface, skiing powder is all about letting the ski do the work. If you feel like powder's a workout, you're not letting the ski do the work. When done properly, skiing powder is nearly effortless.
Now go watch what I'm talking about. Click on over to www.SkiMovies.com (a division of FTO) and watch a few select videos online. In particular, I recommend for your purposes the "Utah Interconnect" video for deep western low moisture content fluff; "December to Remember" from last winter's early season blizzard at Jiminy Peak to see the technique demonstrated in New England concrete; "Lost Trail Powder Mountain," "Northern Rockies Ahead," "Snowed Up At Snoqualmie" and "Vision," all for some of Jay Silveira's unique style using his uphill ski to drive turns a la Scot Schmidt from the 1980s ski movies (dang, I can't do that!); and a few of the scenes in the film Northern Lights from Montana and Wyoming (I'm the goober with the goatee in the purplish jacket, although I'm not the best example of stellar technique). Mike Bernstein, also appearing in the Northern Lights video, gives a much better example of technique in the deep scenes from Bridger Bowl that appear later in the film. The shots of him skiing at Bridger actually ended up on The Weather Channel that evening after the B-roll was uploaded to the satellite. Me? I ended up on the Weather Channel's cutting room floor. :angry: Then again, it probably had something to do with the fact that I was skiing like a gomer that day. I thought for sure that Bridger was going to charge me extra for bringing so much of their snow home with me. :roll:
Just remember, the only way to get good at it is to do it with some frequency. In the northeast, the northern tier of the Green Mountain spine in Vermont (Sugarbush, MRG, Stowe, Smuggs, Bolton and Jay), maybe even extending to Sutton in Québec, statistically provides the best odds of dining on powder. Otherwise, book those trips out west regularly.
ChileMass
Active member
First Tracks said:
I completely agree with this point about exaggerating weighting/unweighting in deep powder. On my first truly epic powder day at Copper Mt in CO several years ago, my bro-in-law (a transplanted easterner) told me about doing this, and also going straighter and faster down the hill. One technique that helps make this exaggerated move happen is to bring your hands much higher up and then down when poling. I found that it helped to bring my body way up and then way down as I tried to exaggerate the motion. I probably raised my hand just above my head and then down to my knees, sort of like a X-C poling motion. It worked out wonderfully, and I had the greatest day of skiing in my life to that point on that day. We had just gotten 20 inches of snow in the past day, and it was like floating in mid-air.
Oh yeah - as noted in other posts, it sure helps that western powder is so dry. I would guess that every few years these types of conditions can be found in the east, but not often........
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"December to Remember" is a must see video. Great job on that one and the "I in't down no more" segment is a hoot. :lol:First Tracks said:
We can only pray for snows like that again this December, and hopefully all winter... 8)
GadgetRick
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Nice reply!
Marc gave a great reply.
I know exactly where you're coming from. The first time I tried to ski powder (what we define as powder in upstate NY that is) all I did was fall and roll around. No need for groomers after I came through...
Anyway, I was working so hard and sweating and just not really enjoying it. I remember skiing with a friend who was also getting his first taste of powder. I remember him asking me how I liked it and I replied, "Well, I guess I'm supposed to say I like it..." Anyway, you get the picture.
So I made it a mission to learn how to ski powder better. Kinda tough when you do most of your skiing in this area. But over the last few years we've had our share of NE powder days. But I was still having lots of problems. Doing better but still not enjoying it.
Then I really started to truly learning how to ski rather than just going down the mountain. Being on the patrol afforded us free lessons from some of the best instructors we've got. I've worked hard over the last few years to improve my skiing overall and I learned one thing about skiing in any conditions. You must have BALANCE. If you're not balanced properly you'll have trouble skiing just about anything well. However, when you run into something other than a groomer (i.e. powder and/or bumps) you'll have difficulties. So I've worked hard at being properly balanced and guess what? Powder is now fun for me.
You need to be sure your center of gravity is over the balls of your feet, not over the front of your skis and not on your heels. You can get away with bad balance on groomers but not in powder or in the bumps.
Proper balance will help you keep that uphill ski from wandering as Marc explained. If it's wandering you're balance it too far down the fall line (down the hill). If your uphill ski is tracking with the downhill ski your balance is better.
I felt I made a huge breakthrough on powder this past season. My balance was getting better and now I actually feel properly balanced (you'll know what it feels like when you get it right like most things in skiing). We had a very warm spring and there was a lot of snow on the mountain. As you know that means we had a lot of heavy, wet snow. That's probably the best place to practice your powder techniques. Heavy wet snow is very unforgiving and dry powder can be very forgiving. If you're not in proper balance in the wet stuff you'll fall every time. So if you really want to work those skills and can't make it out West, try a lot of spring skiing.
Hope this helps.
Marc gave a great reply.
I know exactly where you're coming from. The first time I tried to ski powder (what we define as powder in upstate NY that is) all I did was fall and roll around. No need for groomers after I came through...
Anyway, I was working so hard and sweating and just not really enjoying it. I remember skiing with a friend who was also getting his first taste of powder. I remember him asking me how I liked it and I replied, "Well, I guess I'm supposed to say I like it..." Anyway, you get the picture.
So I made it a mission to learn how to ski powder better. Kinda tough when you do most of your skiing in this area. But over the last few years we've had our share of NE powder days. But I was still having lots of problems. Doing better but still not enjoying it.
Then I really started to truly learning how to ski rather than just going down the mountain. Being on the patrol afforded us free lessons from some of the best instructors we've got. I've worked hard over the last few years to improve my skiing overall and I learned one thing about skiing in any conditions. You must have BALANCE. If you're not balanced properly you'll have trouble skiing just about anything well. However, when you run into something other than a groomer (i.e. powder and/or bumps) you'll have difficulties. So I've worked hard at being properly balanced and guess what? Powder is now fun for me.
You need to be sure your center of gravity is over the balls of your feet, not over the front of your skis and not on your heels. You can get away with bad balance on groomers but not in powder or in the bumps.
Proper balance will help you keep that uphill ski from wandering as Marc explained. If it's wandering you're balance it too far down the fall line (down the hill). If your uphill ski is tracking with the downhill ski your balance is better.
I felt I made a huge breakthrough on powder this past season. My balance was getting better and now I actually feel properly balanced (you'll know what it feels like when you get it right like most things in skiing). We had a very warm spring and there was a lot of snow on the mountain. As you know that means we had a lot of heavy, wet snow. That's probably the best place to practice your powder techniques. Heavy wet snow is very unforgiving and dry powder can be very forgiving. If you're not in proper balance in the wet stuff you'll fall every time. So if you really want to work those skills and can't make it out West, try a lot of spring skiing.
Hope this helps.
First Tracks
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Greg said:
Thanks for reminding me to go back and enjoy that this morning, Greg. I don't think that I've ever shot that many skiing disasters on film in one day behind the lens, before or since. That stuff was heavy, not only from moisture but from windslab as well, and the winds left the snow in very inconsistent and uneven depths. We were floundering like you wouldn't believe...until you see the video, that is. Then you'll believe it. :lol:
GadgetRick said:
Good point, GadgetRick, and one that I failed to mention. Some folks believe that you need to lean back to ski pow, and that you need to be able to force your ski's tips to the surface by doing so. This is a fallacy, and a recipe for disaster just as leaning back while skiing groomed snow is. Skiing powder effectively requires the same centered, balanced stance that skiing any other surface requires. To find that centered point, an age old trick works: while in a gentle traverse across the fall line on a novice slope, lean as far forward as you possibly can, pressing your shins against the tongues of your boots. Now, rock backward, so you're leaning back as far as possible. Continue to move back and forth in this manner until you're able to detect the midpoint, the center. That's where your weight should be while skiing.
GadgetRick said:
I think that we're saying the same thing here, GadgetRick, but let me clarify my position to be sure. The thing that keeps your uphill ski from wandering is the application of sufficient weight to it. Leaving it unweighted allows it to wander. Applying nearly equal weight to both skis forces your uphill ski to track alongside your downhill ski. Having your weight too far forward or too far back doesn't have an effect on this.
GadgetRick said:
Where are you patrolling at? I spent 8 years as a sled dog at Jay myself until a relocation to the west coast of Florida in the mid-90s. (Yeah...I know, I know...what was I thinking?)
Tin Woodsman
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Yeah, that Bernstein kid can ski!.
tirolerpeter
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Deep Powder Skiing
uphillklimber...I know what you mean. Starting out at the crack of dawn to get "first tracks" sounds like a skier's dream BUT. We eastern skiers (especially those of us over 50...OK I'm 58.) really do need some serious "warm-up runs" to get the old body working properly. This is not a problem if I have been skiing for a while and the snow depth is increasing. It is a problem when I jump off the lift into anything over about 8" (for me) and I have to immediately start that fluid carving combined with the nice bounce and roll needed to initiate the next arc. That is one reason I love skiing in Utah so much. Many of the areas just groom a nice path down through the powder on a couple of "Blues" (Now you know what they call western "blues" in the east, don't you?) and that gives me a chance to get the muscles and coordination warmed and synchronized. After that it is all WHOPEEEEEEE!!!!!
uphillklimber...I know what you mean. Starting out at the crack of dawn to get "first tracks" sounds like a skier's dream BUT. We eastern skiers (especially those of us over 50...OK I'm 58.) really do need some serious "warm-up runs" to get the old body working properly. This is not a problem if I have been skiing for a while and the snow depth is increasing. It is a problem when I jump off the lift into anything over about 8" (for me) and I have to immediately start that fluid carving combined with the nice bounce and roll needed to initiate the next arc. That is one reason I love skiing in Utah so much. Many of the areas just groom a nice path down through the powder on a couple of "Blues" (Now you know what they call western "blues" in the east, don't you?) and that gives me a chance to get the muscles and coordination warmed and synchronized. After that it is all WHOPEEEEEEE!!!!!
sledhaulingmedic
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A lot of great advise all around.
For me, "skiing both skis" seems to be the point I need to remember. To a large degree, I'm stuck in the old school mode of fully weighting the downhill ski. Keeping your weight across both skis and (also, as mentioned, on the balls of your feet seems to be what I need to stay aware of.
For an Eastern skier, I generally get a greater share of powder days than most (patrolling during the week at an area that isn't afraid to leave trails ungroomed.) Still, It takes me a few runss worth of turns to adjust my technique to a big dumps worth.
I'd be happy skiing on some man-made ice at this point. Bring it on!
For me, "skiing both skis" seems to be the point I need to remember. To a large degree, I'm stuck in the old school mode of fully weighting the downhill ski. Keeping your weight across both skis and (also, as mentioned, on the balls of your feet seems to be what I need to stay aware of.
For an Eastern skier, I generally get a greater share of powder days than most (patrolling during the week at an area that isn't afraid to leave trails ungroomed.) Still, It takes me a few runss worth of turns to adjust my technique to a big dumps worth.
I'd be happy skiing on some man-made ice at this point. Bring it on!
bigbog
Active member
re:....
Hi Uphill,
...Powder gives me such a great & thorough lesson every second.....demanding core-skeletal strength, and lower-half relaxation.....and as Marc, Rick, and Sledhaulin' so notably mentioned...just tip those boards(more as one platform) while balanced...and let em' do the work
The lack of snow density will offer more time for honing up the adjustments....
Nice stuff Marc/Rick....& thanks for the pow video/dvd choices..
Steve
Hi Uphill,
...Powder gives me such a great & thorough lesson every second.....demanding core-skeletal strength, and lower-half relaxation.....and as Marc, Rick, and Sledhaulin' so notably mentioned...just tip those boards(more as one platform) while balanced...and let em' do the work
The lack of snow density will offer more time for honing up the adjustments....
Nice stuff Marc/Rick....& thanks for the pow video/dvd choices..
Steve
GadgetRick
New member
Stuff...
I patrol at Belleayre Mountain in NY. I'm a volunteer patroller there. Can't afford to do it full time!
And you're right, what were you thinking? I like Florida and all but...
Thanks for the clarification on the uphill ski weight issue. I know what I want to say but not how to say it (all of the time). I'm not an instructor (far from it) so it's not as easy for me to explain things as it might be for someone who teaches (or has taught) skiing.
Let's just hope we all enjoy LOTS of pow pow this season!!! Got my refresher weekend this weekend. It's getting colder outside. I'm getting that feeling again...
I patrol at Belleayre Mountain in NY. I'm a volunteer patroller there. Can't afford to do it full time!
And you're right, what were you thinking? I like Florida and all but...
Thanks for the clarification on the uphill ski weight issue. I know what I want to say but not how to say it (all of the time). I'm not an instructor (far from it) so it's not as easy for me to explain things as it might be for someone who teaches (or has taught) skiing.
Let's just hope we all enjoy LOTS of pow pow this season!!! Got my refresher weekend this weekend. It's getting colder outside. I'm getting that feeling again...
First Tracks
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Re: Stuff...
Is Mike Shaw still patrolling there? If so, tell him that I said "hi." I used to patrol with him at Jay in the late 80s/early 90s before he relocated to the Catskills and transferred to the Belleayre patrol, but I haven't spoken with him in years. Great guy.
GadgetRick said:
Is Mike Shaw still patrolling there? If so, tell him that I said "hi." I used to patrol with him at Jay in the late 80s/early 90s before he relocated to the Catskills and transferred to the Belleayre patrol, but I haven't spoken with him in years. Great guy.
Zand
Well-known member
Greg said:
The double eject one is hilarious. And to top it off, he loses his skis in the powder. Haha.
First Tracks
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Zand said:
As I was filming that, I watched him picking up more and more speed, and could only think to myself, "This is gonna be ugly." It was.
The other one that was beautiful was the patrol director who fell, then picked himself up, only to make a few more turns and fall again. I won't discuss what I thought I heard him yell after the second fall. (To his credit, he denies it and claims that it was actually a similar word, but I could swear...)
GadgetRick
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Don't know
If he's a full-timer he may be on but I don't know him. We've got over 100 patrollers overall and most of us are volunteers. I don't know all of the full-timers.
The name sounds familiar though.
If he's a full-timer he may be on but I don't know him. We've got over 100 patrollers overall and most of us are volunteers. I don't know all of the full-timers.
The name sounds familiar though.
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