Very interesting questions.
-
Welcome to AlpineZone, the largest online community of skiers and snowboarders in the Northeast!
You may have to REGISTER before you can post. Registering is FREE, gets rid of the majority of advertisements, and lets you participate in giveaways and other AlpineZone events!
Epic and Iconic One Wasatch transit plans revealed
- Thread starter deadheadskier
- Start date
Very interesting questions.
What discount in revenue? If the skier wasn't coming without Ikon, then there's no revenue loss by Ikon being "cheaper" (and if people are arguing that Ikon contributes to crowding, then those people must be also assuming those people weren't skiing at the resort without Ikon to begin with).
If on the other hand the discount is vs someone that was coming previously but using a day ticket, then you could make an argument that the resort was over-charging those people anyway. Most people agree day ticket prices are too high. If day ticket prices were actually reasonable, then there really wouldn't be demand for a product like Ikon in the first place.
People make this argument often and I don't buy it. For every Ikon person that spends nothing extra at the resort, there's another that uses resort lodging and is eating every meal on mountain. And for every passholder that hangs out all the time at the bar for apres ski buying drinks every week, there's another that rarely eats on mountain and spends far less additional money on the mountain than some day/weekend trippers do. (Win may not like to hear it, but I fall in this latter category with my Sugarbush pass and know a number of others that do as well. I'd rather not go to the bar on mountain and save my money for a nice dinner out down in the valley at night instead)
I'm regularly in the mid-40s at one mountain and know plenty of other regulars that have more days than I do on the mountain.
Very true, although in another thread there was someone saying that Alterra was giving JH ~$80 per Ikon scan I think it was. I argued as well that seemed excessive to me, but the person said they had sources they trusted and also argued that JH was a premium resort so probably made more than other Ikon partners. Certainly plausible, although if true you would think it a bit unlikely they were giving JH 2x or more what they give a place like Alta.
Interesting question, but I would say it is either a fixed amount per visit (which could very likely vary per resort) or it is a percentage based allocation depending on how many overall scans each resort gets. Some people using fewer days on their pass is exactly what Alterra is expecting to happen. I'm sure there's somehow that Alterra (and Vail) is eliminating that risk. Either they are giving fixed amounts that they know will still leave them plenty of wiggle room or they are putting contractual ceilings in agreements, etc. Doing a variable rate per individual skier based on that skier's usage is just far too complex and puts far too much variability into it from the perspective of the partner resorts. It doesn't make sense for Alta to be getting $100 for one Ikon scan but $5 for another Ikon scan from a different skier that used a ton of days at different resorts. I don't see them agreeing to that sort of model. Either a "percentage of the pool" or a "fixed rate" model would be far more palatable to each resort. (And also far simpler to calculate for everyone involved).
For Saturdays and Holidays I agree to a point...Holidays are already pretty restricted at many resorts with the base Ikon pass and in fact resulted in many people saying their particular ski area was "less crowded" than usual during those times since Ikon passes were blacked out. Saturdays I think would be difficult to restrict though as any restrictions there would significantly limit the appeal of the pass.
I can see changes down the line with the overall number of days or with perhaps some resorts having less days than others. But I think Alterra will want to see at least 2-3 years of usage data before making any substantial changes.
Very well said. As a business, ski resorts will always welcome Ikon as long as it brings more total revenue. If the mountain is becoming more crowded because of Ikon, then it is likely that the business model is working out. I highly doubt the ski resorts would worry about crowding as long as it doesn’t hurt their long run revenue... but if people stopped coming because of crowd, crowding issue solves itself and people will come back....
Reminds me of the old Yogi Berra saying..."No one goes there anymore. It's too crowded."
As you said, you're making an assumption. There's not really any way to know one way or another.
That, again, is an assumption.
Same here. But we're a small group relative to most of the season pass holder market.
Therein lies the rub.......
You were the one that questioned whether Ikon skiers were generating enough ancillary revenue at the resort to offset the discounted revenue. That's an assumption as well. I was merely questioning your assumption that there's a revenue discount to begin with and providing one possibility that would refute that.
Regarding my comment on some Ikon skiers generating secondary revenue via lodging, food, etc...I really don't see that as an assumption. It is statistically unlikely that NO Ikon skiers are using lodging and food. It is also an assumption on your part that resorts are getting more from passholders (looking at it on a per-skier visit basis). I'm a perfect example of why they aren't necessarily getting more from passholders. Right now even if you include the couple of times I ate/drank on the mountain and the handful of trips to the tune-up shop for a quick edge/wax, I'm still only generating about $20/day for the resort (and realistically that number will continue to drop if I get more days in). Yes, I'm just one example. But again, without numbers we just don't know whether I'm closer to the norm or whether someone that buys multiple drinks at apres every week is closer to the norm.
Do you know that for a fact? I see a lot of the same people on the mountain every week. Without access to the numbers, I'm not going to automatically assume I'm in the minority and that most people use their passes for fewer days.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not pro-Ikon. I'm a passholder so Ikon has no benefit to me personally. I'm just often playing devil's advocate here when people try to blame Ikon for certain things with no facts to back it up. If Ikon isn't providing a revenue benefit to the resorts, then we'll see resorts drop it (or major changes to it) once the initial 2 or 3 year contract (or whatever it is) is up. If resorts stay in it beyond that point, then the logical conclusion is that the people with actual access to the data see it as a benefit.
In conclusion I think the only "facts" we actually have so far are what the resorts themselves have stated (of course numerous people claim the resorts are lying which I think is a baseless claim and just people not happy that the message from the resorts doesn't fit with their own personal beliefs).
A) Ikon is generating skier visits
B) Season pass usage is up (some resorts state by a significant margin)
C) Daily ticket sales are down
Beyond that...it is mostly just conjecture from people with no actual data. :beer:
In other news...got this from J Hole. If you can’t beat ‘em, join ‘em.
Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone
Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone
Zand
Well-known member
If Killington did this I'd buy a season pass tomorrow.
BenedictGomez
Well-known member
As of last season, the average domestically was 5.8 days*. Personally, I'd rather know the median, but average is decent enough to know for 100% certain that tons of people arent skiing "mid-40s" & "more than" that per year.
*EDIT: This is from NSAA data for those wondering
Where are you seeing that 5.8 number? In looking at NSAA data (latest I can find is for the 2016/17 season), it ranges from a low of 9.1 in the Rocky Mountain region to a high of 13.7 in the Northeast.
BenedictGomez
Well-known member
I calculated it myself. You need to take the number of domestic skier visits per year (from one data set) & then divide it by the total number of estimated skiers (from another data set), which equals 5.8 days.
EDIT: If you want to use the 2016-2017 figures (better snow year), the number inches up to 5.9 days, so it was pretty static for those two seasons.
Last edited:
That logic doesn't exactly make sense as it would be diluted by non-passholder visits, no? The numbers I mentioned were straight out of the NSAA journal article where they've already done the calculations using a variety of other data they collect.
BenedictGomez
Well-known member
I thought you just wanted to know how many days the average skier/snowboarder hits the mountain. Didn't know you were only concerned with either EPIC or IKON people.
Though if we take what we know of the NSAA numbers, the EPIC numbers, and the IKON numbers, it means that roughly 13% of all skiers/snowboards are on either an EPIC or an IKON a pass. That seems pretty significant to me (and it's growing).
I think you’re missing my original premise that lead to us discussing average visits per season Passholder. My argument was that it is silly for some people to complain that “ikon pass holders are skiing for free at partner resorts” unless they are also going to say the same thing about season Passholders that ski more than x number of days. And my theory was that some of the people saying ikon Passholders are skiing for “free” are also people that happen to be in that category of skiing enough days on their season pass to drop their per day cost rather low (potentially even lower than whatever rate the mountain is getting for an ikon visit).
Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone
drjeff
Well-known member
Short version, if one was a season pass holder at a mountain before it became part of a multi resort pass, chances are that you're not as happy with the multi resort pass, and what it's done to crowd volume and your "day to day" experience at your home hill as one who wasn't a passholder and bought a multi resort pass because of the deal it is and the opportunities it opens up for many.
This second subset seems to be skiing more per season than they did pre pass purchasing. There are still LOTS of people who only ski 1 or 2 Holiday weekends a year and then may 1 or 2 other random days during the season. Most AZ members are far from typical when it comes to how often we ski per year
This second subset seems to be skiing more per season than they did pre pass purchasing. There are still LOTS of people who only ski 1 or 2 Holiday weekends a year and then may 1 or 2 other random days during the season. Most AZ members are far from typical when it comes to how often we ski per year
BenedictGomez
Well-known member
Next year it's Sun Valley & Snowbasin's turn to bitch.
I think the wailing & gnashing of teeth may be especially strong from the Sun Valley regulars (for good reason).
I think the wailing & gnashing of teeth may be especially strong from the Sun Valley regulars (for good reason).
BenedictGomez
Well-known member
I was surprised how "locals" of a mountain that place is. One long-time skier told me he thinks it's 80% local Utahns, maybe more. I believe him too, as it seemed everyone I shared a chair with was local. Ogden's playground.
Similar threads
