Fixed Grip Quad to HSQ

[Puck it]

Can the poles, pullies and cable be reused?

Load and Unload station and chairs change. Chair spacing is about 2 to 1 for HSQ to fixed and speed 3x or 4x for HSQ over fixed.

 

[BushMogulMaster]

Can the poles, pullies and cable be reused?

Load and Unload station and chairs change. Chair spacing is about 2 to 1 for HSQ to fixed and speed 3x or 4x for HSQ over fixed.

There's no simple answer to that question. Often some components of a ropeway system can be reused in a major upgrade/overhaul. Towers can often be reused, assuming they were engineered to withstand the forces the new HSQ installation will cause to be acted on them. Sheave assemblies would likely have to be replaced, because they would have to support a more substantial haul rope. The haul rope would definitely have to be replaced, as detachable quad systems use larger (and different classification) haul ropes than fixed grips.

Drive/tension/idler terminals obviously must be replaced, for acceleration and deceleration, as well as larger prime mover and gearbox equipment. Chairs/grips, definitely must be replaced (obviously). Speed difference isn't necessarily as much as you think. Fixed quads typically run in the 350-450fpm range. Detaches run in the 900-1100fpm range.

 

[Puck it]

I thought the poles could be. The cable looks the same diameter when comparing them from a distance. The pullies, I agree with too.

 

[BushMogulMaster]

I thought the poles could be. The cable looks the same diameter when comparing them from a distance. The pullies, I agree with too.

The haul rope (it's not a cable, actually, if you want to get technical :wink: ) for a detachable is typically a 42-55mm 6 x 37 wire rope, often in a Lang Lay, whereas a fixed is usually a 22-40mm 6 x 19 with a Regular Lay. But that's more detail than you really need.

 

[thetrailboss]

There's no simple answer to that question. Often some components of a ropeway system can be reused in a major upgrade/overhaul. Towers can often be reused, assuming they were engineered to withstand the forces the new HSQ installation will cause to be acted on them. Sheave assemblies would likely have to be replaced, because they would have to support a more substantial haul rope. The haul rope would definitely have to be replaced, as detachable quad systems use larger (and different classification) haul ropes than fixed grips.

Drive/tension/idler terminals obviously must be replaced, for acceleration and deceleration, as well as larger prime mover and gearbox equipment. Chairs/grips, definitely must be replaced (obviously). Speed difference isn't necessarily as much as you think. Fixed quads typically run in the 350-450fpm range. Detaches run in the 900-1100fpm range.

What he said. :wink:

 

[GrilledSteezeSandwich]

Can the poles, pullies and cable be reused?

Load and Unload station and chairs change. Chair spacing is about 2 to 1 for HSQ to fixed and speed 3x or 4x for HSQ over fixed.

No High Speed quads are about double..that of a fixed grip..1,000 feet per minute vs 500 feet per minute is a good rule of thumb..

 

[ckofer]

No High Speed quads are about double..that of a fixed grip..1,000 feet per minute vs 500 feet per minute is a good rule of thumb..

I've been seeing about 4.5 (350 or so fpm) mph on my gps on the fixed grip and about 10 (800 fpm) on the high speed-or so I seem to remember.

 

[GrilledSteezeSandwich]

I've been seeing about 4.5 (350 or so fpm) mph on my gps on the fixed grip and about 10 (800 fpm) on the high speed-or so I seem to remember.

4.5 miles per hour equals..about 450 feet per minute and 10mph equals about 500+ feet per minute..FYI..The fastest high speed lifts run at around 1200 feet per minute..like the Slidebrook at Sugarbush or the Superquad at Sugarloaf but most run around 1,000 feet per minute. At Blue mountain the High speed six pack travels about 800-900 feet per minute 4100 linear feet in a tad under 5 minutes. and the double lifts run at about 450 feet per minute...2883 linear feet in 6+ minutes.

 

[ckofer]

The haul rope (it's not a cable, actually, if you want to get technical :wink: ) for a detachable is typically a 42-55mm 6 x 35 wire rope, often in a Lang Lay, whereas a fixed is usually a 22-40mm 6 x 19 with a Regular Lay. But that's more detail than you really need.

Okay so I need to know more and found:

http://www.inventionfactory.com/history/RHAwire/wireengn/wire/whatis.html

a - Wire b - Strand c - Center d - Wire Rope
What Is Wire Rope?


DEVELOPING the thought of last month's article -- "Wire Rope -- A Machine," we conclude that wire rope is a highly complex machine -- a fact that is little appreciated by the average user. For example, we can take standard "Blue Center" Steel, and is a distinctive hoisting rope, which is 6 x 19 construction, and find that this rope is made up of 114 separate and distinct steel wires, each of these wires specified and drawn to a size held generally within .001''. When it is considered that each of these wires is in contact at three or more points, and comparing these bearing surfaces with the bearing surfaces of machines. it will be seen that this is a complex mechanism, and it should be appreciated as such.

There are five standard grades of Wire Rope in general use; namely, iron, cast steel, extra strong cast steel, plow steel and improved plow steel. To this list we add "Blue Center Steel" a distinctive Roebling Product. There are of course other grades of wire fabricated into rope, of which products for aircraft are a good example but we are dealing here with the general grades best known to users.

While wire rope is furnished in all of these grades, it is nevertheless true that the increasingly severe requirements make it necessary to use only the stronger ones, and in fact the best quality possible to obtain, in order to assure customers of economical average service with safety.

In each of the grades mentioned there are a great number of constructions of rope which can be, and are furnished, although naturally these constructions divide themselves into four general classifications that cover most of the wire rope in use. The standard constructions are 6x7, which is sometimes spoken of as coarse lay; 6x19, or flexible and 6x37 together with 8x19, or extra flexible. There are of course many variations from these constructions which call for different numbers of wies in the strands and sometimes different numbers of strands in the rope. The majority of these, however, have generally been accepted as falling within these four general classifications.


6x7 Construction
6 Strands, 7 Wires
to Strand

6x19 Construction
6 Strands, 19 Wires
to Strand

6x37 Construction
6 Strands, 37 Wires
to Strand

8x19 Construction
8 Strands, 19 Wires
toStrand Before further discussing wire rope construction, however, let us first consider the individual wires that enter into the rope. They are called "wires" both before and after the rope is fabricated. The correct number of wires of a proper size are laid together to form strands. The proper number of strands are then laid together around the center, which may be hemp, strand or an independent wire rope, and this forms the rope with which we are familiar, and which is in use on so many varied installations.

We refer to wire, strand and center, merely in an attempt to establish the correct terms for wire rope, because so many times strands are spoken of as wires and, vice versa, wires are spoken of as strands.

Wire rope can be made either "right lay" or "left lay." Most of the wire rope furnished, however, is "right lay." This means that the strands composing the rope are laid around the center in the direction that causes them to form a right hand spiral. This can probably be better understood by referring to a right-hand screw thread. The strands in a right lay rope will advance along, and around the axis of the rope, in the same manner as do the threads in standard right-hand screw. Another way of expressing this would be to note the direction of rotation of the strands around the rope as you follow the strand from a point near to you to a point farther away. If this direction of rotation is clockwise, it is a right lay rope. Left lay would naturally be the reverse. In other words, the strands form a left-hand spiral in the rope. Since right lay is the standard lay, this is always furnished, unless left lay is definitely specified on the order.

Wire rope is furnished either Regular Lay or Lang Lay. Regular Lay wire rope is one where the wires in the strands and the strands in the rope are laid in opposite directions. That is, the lay of the wire in the strands in a right lay rope would be "left lay" in making a Regular Lay wire rope. Naturally a left lay Regular Lay rope would have the wires in the strands laid "right lay." Regular Lay is the standard type of construction and, unless otherwise specified, is furnished on orders for wire rope.

What is known as "Lang Lay" rope is also made Right Lay or Left Lay; however, right lay is more frequently used. In this construction the wires in the strands, and the strands in the rope, are laid in the same direction, or, in other words, the wires in the strands of a right lay Lang Lay rope would be laid "right lay." This particular type of rope is slightly more susceptible to abuse and, therefore must be handled with greater care, and should be used only where it is especially recommended.

Wire rope is generally furnished "bright'" that is, the rope is made of bare steel wires with no coating other than that used, and formed, as part of the lubrication for the wire drawing operation. Most of the rope in use is of this finish or grade. Galvanized wire rope has a wide variety of uses. In this type of rope, all of the wires are coated with pure zinc, which forms a protection against corrosion. It is called "galvanized wire rope" to distinguish it from bright rope. Wire rope is also furnished "tinned," but this finish represents only a small percentage of the wire rope in use.

The most satisfactory material for making wire rope is carbon steel, although many other metals are used: some of which are copper, bronze, stainless steel and various alloys.

Next month we will discuss the construction of Wire Rope.

Regular Lay
Right Lay

Regular Lay
Left Lay

Lang Lay
Right Lay

Lang Lay
Left Lay


Back to Wire Engineering

 

[BushMogulMaster]

No High Speed quads are about double..that of a fixed grip..1,000 feet per minute vs 500 feet per minute is a good rule of thumb..

Actually, go with 1000fpm vs. 450fpm. FG quads can't run more than 450fpm per ANSI B77.

FYI..The fastest high speed lifts run at around 1200 feet per minute..like the Slidebrook at Sugarbush

FYI... speed rating on SBX is 1150fpm :wink:


Good little piece there on wire ropes, ckof.

 

[Puck it]

The load on a HSQ is significantly more than a fixed grip due the speed of the cable (sorry haul rope!). Does anyone know what the load equation is? The spacing on the HSQ is double the fixed grip so the velocity has to double at least to get the same uphill capacity.

 

[Telemechanic]

The load on a HSQ is significantly more than a fixed grip due the speed of the cable (sorry haul rope!). Does anyone know what the load equation is? The spacing on the HSQ is double the fixed grip so the velocity has to double at least to get the same uphill capacity.

Since we're talking technical lets replace "HSQ" with detachable grip, detachable or CLD (sorry marketing department). Fixed grip will do nicely but if your looking for easy typing, try CLF.

I'm not sure if by "load" you mean the weight of all the chairs and riders on the rope or the loading area where riders meet chairs. I can use a couple of chairs at Loon to calculate (or verify) the distance between chairs. The Kancamagus detachable quad is designed to run 5 mps or 1000 fpm and at that maximum speed its capacity is 2800 pph. The distance between chairs on the haul rope is about 86 feet and the interval between chairs is about 5 seconds. The Tote Road fixed quad is designed to run 2.28 mps or 450 fpm and at that maximum speed its capacity is 2400 pph. The distance between chairs is about 45 feet and the interval is about 6.5 seconds. Generally these chairs represent the maximum uphill capacity of chairs in their class. At these capacities these are also the maximum line speeds. Typically detachable chairs that run at 1100 fpm have fewer chairs or less uphill capacity or both. Leitner-Poma is known for building detachables that run faster, have fewer chairs but still achieve 2800 pph like a slower lift with more chairs. Apparently this can save their customers money.
Not all detachable quads are built to haul 2800pph and some are built to haul 2800 but initially have lower capacities, i.e. to spread out the cost of the lift by buying some chairs at a later date, or to match the chair capacity to the desired capacity of the trails it services. At Loon we have two "2800" chairs with intially lower capacites for both these reasons: Lincoln Express- 2400 pph and North Peak- 1800 pph (the same as the FG triple it replaced!) Also, many lifts, fixed and detachable are run at less than maximum line speed from time to time. Weather is a common reason to slow down a detachable but both kinds of lifts are run slower for a number of reasons including to make it easier to load and unload, on a busy day this can lessen the number of stops and slow downs due to miss-loads and stabilize the loss of uphill capacity.
If you meant load on the line I'll save it for another post.

 

[ckofer]

4.5 miles per hour equals..about 450 feet per minute and 10mph equals about 500+ feet per minute..FYI..The fastest high speed lifts run at around 1200 feet per minute..like the Slidebrook at Sugarbush or the Superquad at Sugarloaf but most run around 1,000 feet per minute. At Blue mountain the High speed six pack travels about 800-900 feet per minute 4100 linear feet in a tad under 5 minutes. and the double lifts run at about 450 feet per minute...2883 linear feet in 6+ minutes.

http://www.sengpielaudio.com/calculatorVelocityunits.htm

4.5 mph = 395.9985515928 fpm
10 mph = 879.9967813173 fpm

You can more than double one item and not expect more than double the other one...

Regardless, long, slow lifts suck and it seems that quite a few parts of a fixed grip lift system won't do the job on a detachable. Still beats a rope tow.

 

[thetrailboss]

Watching them splice cable is really cool....

 

[Telemechanic]

mmm, lemon-lime splice!

Watching them splice cable is really cool....

Where did you see a cable splicing? There is a very short video of the splicing of Loon's Tote Road in the archives at Loonmtn.com. Scroll down the "video snack" window to find it:

http://www.loonmtn.com/info/winter/video.asp

 

[Puck it]

Since we're talking technical lets replace "HSQ" with detachable grip, detachable or CLD (sorry marketing department). Fixed grip will do nicely but if your looking for easy typing, try CLF.

I'm not sure if by "load" you mean the weight of all the chairs and riders on the rope or the loading area where riders meet chairs. I can use a couple of chairs at Loon to calculate (or verify) the distance between chairs. The Kancamagus detachable quad is designed to run 5 mps or 1000 fpm and at that maximum speed its capacity is 2800 pph. The distance between chairs on the haul rope is about 86 feet and the interval between chairs is about 5 seconds. The Tote Road fixed quad is designed to run 2.28 mps or 450 fpm and at that maximum speed its capacity is 2400 pph. The distance between chairs is about 45 feet and the interval is about 6.5 seconds. Generally these chairs represent the maximum uphill capacity of chairs in their class. At these capacities these are also the maximum line speeds. Typically detachable chairs that run at 1100 fpm have fewer chairs or less uphill capacity or both. Leitner-Poma is known for building detachables that run faster, have fewer chairs but still achieve 2800 pph like a slower lift with more chairs. Apparently this can save their customers money.
Not all detachable quads are built to haul 2800pph and some are built to haul 2800 but initially have lower capacities, i.e. to spread out the cost of the lift by buying some chairs at a later date, or to match the chair capacity to the desired capacity of the trails it services. At Loon we have two "2800" chairs with intially lower capacites for both these reasons: Lincoln Express- 2400 pph and North Peak- 1800 pph (the same as the FG triple it replaced!) Also, many lifts, fixed and detachable are run at less than maximum line speed from time to time. Weather is a common reason to slow down a detachable but both kinds of lifts are run slower for a number of reasons including to make it easier to load and unload, on a busy day this can lessen the number of stops and slow downs due to miss-loads and stabilize the loss of uphill capacity.
If you meant load on the line I'll save it for another post.

Load is the total force acting on the lift including people.

 

[thetrailboss]

Where did you see a cable splicing? There is a very short video of the splicing of Loon's Tote Road in the archives at Loonmtn.com. Scroll down the "video snack" window to find it:

http://www.loonmtn.com/info/winter/video.asp

I saw Poma splicing the cable to the GMX in 2002 at Sugarbush.

 

[BushMogulMaster]

The load on a HSQ is significantly more than a fixed grip due the speed of the cable (sorry haul rope!). Does anyone know what the load equation is? The spacing on the HSQ is double the fixed grip so the velocity has to double at least to get the same uphill capacity.

Total load is extremely dynamic, given wind, weather, load, etc. There's no "equation" for that that I'm aware of.

However, for capacity:

C = (60 X P X R) / S

Where C = capacity, P = passengers per carrier, R = rope speed (in fpm), and S = chair spacing.

Spacing/velocity do not need to be double that of a FG. As long as the equation works out for the capacity you desire, then you're fine. Don't forget to check loading interval as well.

Typically what you'd do is choose your desired loading interval and speed, then get your capacity. Or switch it up and choose your capacity, then adjust the other metrics.

 

[BushMogulMaster]

Watching them splice cable is really cool....

Yeah, it's a fascinating process. I think I posted some pictures here from when I worked the Ski Cooper Triple and A-Basin Zuma splices.

 

[Puck it]

Total load is extremely dynamic, given wind, weather, load, etc. There's no "equation" for that that I'm aware of.

However, for capacity:

C = (60 X P X R) / S

Where C = capacity, P = passengers per carrier, R = rope speed (in fpm), and S = chair spacing.

Spacing/velocity do not need to be double that of a FG. As long as the equation works out for the capacity you desire, then you're fine. Don't forget to check loading interval as well.

Typically what you'd do is choose your desired loading interval and speed, then get your capacity. Or switch it up and choose your capacity, then adjust the other metrics.

If spacing on HSQ is double that of a fixed grip then the speed has to double to get the same number of people up the mountain ignoring load and unloading times. So the number of people on the slopes is the same for this condition. Only benefit is the ride time is shorter.