HS Detachable vs. Fixed Grip

[NYDrew]

What do you prefere?

Personally, I like the FG lifts. Ignoring the fact that they scare off beginners and intermediates, and are almost always used to service expert areas...I do prefere the old fashioned.

My reasoning is that I find getting off of them much easyier. Where a detach drops you and forces you to pole away from the chair, I like the way the FG pushes you away, assuming you know how to ride it right. If only they could crank up the speed on them. I think they keep them slow so that people of less experience dont get mauled by them. Only draw back is the occasional calf crunch while getting on.

 

[riverc0il]

fixed grip all the way! most of the best terrain in new england is only accessable by fixed grips.

 

[thetrailboss]

HSQ's only create more crowds IMHO nad from my experience.

 

[Greg]

I guess it depends. If I can access the terrain I want to ski from a detach., then cool. Most of the trails I prefer to ski are off FGs though. The appeal of these trails (less crowded, natural snow, steeper) are sometimes a direct result of being serviced by an FG so FG gets my vote. The biggest benefit to a detach., especially at a larger area, is to get you from the base to the more challenging areas.

 

[tirolerpeter]

What do you prefere?

Personally, I like the FG lifts. Ignoring the fact that they scare off beginners and intermediates, and are almost always used to service expert areas...I do prefere the old fashioned.

My reasoning is that I find getting off of them much easyier. Where a detach drops you and forces you to pole away from the chair, I like the way the FG pushes you away, assuming you know how to ride it right. If only they could crank up the speed on them. I think they keep them slow so that people of less experience dont get mauled by them. Only draw back is the occasional calf crunch while getting on.

You left out a third choice: Either one.

I don't really care what kind of lift gets me to the terrain that I like; as long as it gets me there. FG's can be a pain when they have to be slowed up to allow groups of kids and beginners to board safely. That can make a lift ride interminable. Ever since they cut a green trail from the top at Windham, the "Why Not Triple" is a PIA because it always slowing down. If it were a detachable, it would be easier to load the kids and families that use it, and make it quicker for advanced skiers to access those three black trails off the top.

 

[MikeTrainor]

I'll take a fixed grip any day...I like the look of the Poma Alpha terminal

 

[NYDrew]

of course I left an omission. if i had that option then everyone would say "what ever gets me up the hill" I wanted to create a solid conversation on lift preference. But you are correct, that option woud probably be everyones preference because, I think i speak for all skiiers and riders when i say, it doesnt matter how you get up the hill.

 

[ckofer]

Detachable.

I both ski and ride. The slower loading and offloading is a big advantage to riders and much safer for everybody involved. True, they put more people on the mountain, but I'd rather be on top than in the super-long lines of my youth (45 minute waits).

My $0.02.

 

[sledhaulingmedic]

I think detatchables are bad for the industry. They are basically a marketing tool, yet the additional cost is staggering.

It's created a cold war arms race in the industry, area X has one, so area Y has to install one. The additional cost creates additional debt. Have a couple of rotten seasons (like this is likely to be) and how do you service the debt?

I'm fine with fixed grips. Afterall, it's really about the downhill trip.

 

[ckofer]

I think detatchables are bad for the industry. They are basically a marketing tool, yet the additional cost is staggering.

It's created a cold war arms race in the industry, area X has one, so area Y has to install one. The additional cost creates additional debt. Have a couple of rotten seasons (like this is likely to be) and how do you service the debt?

I'm fine with fixed grips. Afterall, it's really about the downhill trip.

Hmmm. Bad for the industry? The lines are shorter , you get more runs in during a day, and loading/offloading is safer.

 

[riverc0il]

lines being shorter is highly argueable. some of the longest lines i have stood in have been for high speed lifts. keep in mind that since the lift gets people onto the top of the run sooner, it also gets people back into line quicker. when a high speed lift is running at full capacity and generating lines, you really don't get any more lifts than a fixed grip at capacity without the lines. i would rather wait for my run sitting down for an extra few minutes rather than standing in line for a shorter ride time.

sled brings into the discussion one of the more interesting points about high speed lifts, we the ticket buyers pay for them. the most expensive ski areas in new england seem to have the most high speed lifts in many cases. the costs of high speed lifts get passed onto the skiers and riders.

 

[ckofer]

Why do you think lines are shorter than in the 70's? The detachable is one reason. This allows quads (& six-packs) to be loaded more readily/safer. I've noticed fewer delays to pick up people who couldn't make it on the lift.

On the other side of the coin, I do appreciate the t-bars and "poma-lifts" that I found out west serving the tops of mountains. This is a nearly perfect way to spread out skiers and riders and discourage those not ready for the steep parts.

No matter what, detachables are here to stay. The uphill capacities are greater=shorter lift lines for the same number of people. I don't mind fixed-grip lifts serving "niche" parts of mountains; it actually makes good sense.

We will end up with more people on the hill some days. Just pretend you're in the glades.

 

[kbroderick]

Detach, all the way. If you want to go out and burn a few runs on groomers, particularly on an less-crowded day, a detach will let you get seven or eight real runs in an hour (assuming 5-7 minutes up, 1.5-2 minutes down). Try to do the same with a fixed-grip quad (assuming that it's not running at crunch-their-bones-as-they-load speed), and you're talking more like 11-15 minutes up.

If you're talking about a powder day, I'd rather be able to get four runs in before 9:30 a.m. rather than one.

On a moderately-crowded day, lift lines tend to be dynamic--they'll vary between short and long. A high-speed lift can clear out the "clumps" much more quickly; a lift with too little uphill capacity will result in one "clump" not being gone when the next arrives. If it's one constant clump, then it's probably a good day to find something else to do (break out the touring setup or the snowshoes would be near the top of the list).

The caveats with regard to on-trail skier density are true--you do need to make sure that you have some place to put all the skiers you're rushing up the hill--but with sufficient trail space (or with few enough skiers), a detach is superior. Yes, they cost more, but good snowmaking and grooming costs more than minimal snowmaking and grooming, too, and that's just part of life; there's a reason that there's only one Mad River Glen.

 

[Geoff]

I'd be fine if they were detachable double chairs. High speed quads put far too many people up on the hill and completely trash the skiing surface. I'd rather stand in a liftline.

 

[riverc0il]

Why do you think lines are shorter than in the 70's? The detachable is one reason.

that is a can of worms for contention if i have ever seen one :lol: while i wasn't around in the 70s for skiing, just coming into this world in '78, i have waited in some monsterous lines, but only places that have high speed lifts. perhaps the worst lines i have ever faced could be found at loon which then had two high speed detaches and now claims three. i waited 40 minutes for the kanc quad one afternoon and you can bet the gondi was a longer wait than that. sunday river is also another culprit of the long line for a HSQ syndrome, and you might as well add all the other ASC ski areas to (places i avoid in general but especially mid-week). now there are those that say you can avoid lines at these places on the weekend, but i am sure they will be quick to point out that you only ride the high speed lifts during 'off' times during the day.

whereas look at places like magic, black NH, bolton valley, tenney, balsams, dartmouth, etc. no lines to speak off.

but it can not simply be chaulked up to number of high speed detaches, which will be my thesis in this post. look at places like cannon, wildcat, ragged, etc. all places that generally handle their lines very well despite high speed lifts. sugarbush has so much terrain it can easily spread the crowds around. and conversely, mad river glen likely has the longest wait times around for a non-detach mountain. i do not see a correlation with detaches and lift lines. rather, i see a correlation between image, marketing dollars, and a ratio of terrain available vs. number of skiers. the more in demand the area, the longer the lines regardless of detaches. for every area you could name with long lines with a detach such as loon, waterville, sunday river, kmart, etc. you could name a place like smuggs or mad river that has longer lines without a high speed.

take magic mountain as a prime example of a mountain with variable lift lines throughout time but without a detach. magic used to be THE place to ski in southern VT. huge lift lines were reported in the past not because of a fixed grip, but because of reputation that drew skiers to the mountain. now? no one waits for lifts at magic mountain even on the weekends. they often only run the red chair despite having two summit lifts. the drop in skiers had nothing to do with the detach but everything to do with reputation and number of skiers showing up. and to the point: a high speed quad virtually ensures that more people will show up surprasing the limited gains a high speed quad has on up hill capacity. so in the end, high speeders can increase lines due to an increase in popularity of the ski area once a high speeder is put in. this is all assuming weekend skiing, no one waits during a non-holiday weekday no matter where you ski up north.

 

[awf170]

Let me try to clear something up. HSQ and FGQ have the same lift capacity, so if there is a line every time then it will dump the same amount of people of at the top, but since people will be spending less time on the chair on the HSQ then that means they will be spending moretime in line.
On less crowded days HSQ can make lines longer too because people will be doing laps faster, which means getting back in line faster. So some days when there is no line on a FGQ then there still might be one on a HSQ.

 

[kbroderick]

(d'oh. Accidentally posted before I finished and didn't even realize it...full post is later in the thread)

 

[ckofer]

Not completely off-topic here is the way lift lines are managed. It makes a huge difference. If each seat is filled on a busy day, the lines go much better. Since we are greedy animals (as a rule), things go better when a lift line attendant forces two pairs of skiers/riders onto a quad. Pet peeve here: long lift lines with unused capacities. Again, it puts more people on the mountain. That's why skip days during the week were invented-so you can avoid the crowds and give your kids a real New England education.

ps Lines at ski areas in the 70's (my teen years) were awful on weekends. Lots of 40 minute waits imposing on 560 minute ski days.

 

[riverc0il]

austin, that is a tad bit of a generalization that doesn't hold up in all situations. depending upon the variables of the lift include speed, number of chairs, chair spacing, length, capacity per chair, etc. capacity could go either way in favor of fixed or detach. but i think the point to emphasize is even if a detach does not have the same capacity as a detach, the detach will attract more people which will increase line size and of course faster up means faster down which also can increase line size.

 

[ckofer]

One other thing: I am married to an insurance professional from the ski industry so I quizzed her and this is what I got : "Detachables are safer and that's why they're going to them". Lifts are a source of claims against the insurers no matter what the crap on the back of your ticket says.