Is powder/tree skiing in the east overrated?

[kingslug]

The absolute craziest powder in my history, and the history of Hunter and most of the East was the 100 year storm that dropped 7 feet in 3 days. I had 174 x 84 Volkyls ..and got my ass kicked. Couldn't see a thing, had to take the goggles off. Never seen so much heavy snow fall that fast. And talk about yardsales. They were falling head over heels everywhere. It took everything I had to stay up and make it down. 90% of everyone out there were just eating it..most gave up. Next day same thing, waist deep, no grooming at all as they couldn't. People jumping over the cliffs , fences, unreal. Finally went home and got my new 98 twin tips and had a much better time. Love powder, but this was insane. Kind of like the first time I ever went to Utah. 48 inches in 48 hours. Spent days yardsailing on my skinny skis.
It takes a good amount of practice to get it right ..but once you do....

 

[KustyTheKlown]

this thread reeks of lame gaper.

 

[Cornhead]

Powder is my drug of choice, planning on a fix tomorrow, I'll try not to flounder. I'd rather ski a foot of powder on a 500ft hill than icy groomers on a 2,000ft mountain, to each his own.

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[deadheadskier]

This might be applicable to what you experience with *most* people at Mount Snow. I hit a few mid week powder days at Mt Ellen last season including Storm Stella and can tell you that the people lined up for the 8 AM first chair don't need or want to wait for 24 hours and a grooming to ski a "soft packed surface".

+1

A lot of it depends on the mountain and it's clientele. Wildcat draws very few skiers who can't ski powder or ungroomed terrain well. They only groom about half their terrain anyways, so it's really not the place to be if you prefer groomers. Those folks should be down the street at Attitash and they primarily are.

Same goes for trees. I rarely see folks in the trees at Wildcat who can't ski them well. If they try, it's typically one run and they get punished for it by eating bark.

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[BenedictGomez]

Well, I still applaud those that know they suck in powder but continue to try it rather than take refuge on a groomer. Its the only way to get better at it.

Yeah, the OP's opinion is bizarre, and assumes that you cant have fun unless you're invited to ski in a Warren Miller film.

Isn't it about having fun? I don't care what the douche bag on the lift wearing his backpack with avy shovel and probe thinks about me and how I look skiing. GFY.

Essentially, this.

The reality is that *most* of the people who show up to ski in a storm in the East, would likely find the experience much more enjoyable if they waited 24 hours until a bunch of the snow was groomed out giving them a soft packed surface.

Wait, what now?

 

[Bosco DaSkia]

Powder is my drug of choice, planning on a fix tomorrow, I'll try not to flounder. I'd rather ski a foot of powder on a 500ft hill than icy groomers on a 2,000ft mountain, to each his own. [/URL]

Yeah? So, where're you guys heading , The Ridge?

 

[Domeskier]

I like the cut of your jib, Griswold.

 

[jimk]

Interesting topic and I am not totally unsympathetic with the OPs hypothesis. I just made a post on another site about the snowiest skiing I ever experienced, 81" in one week in Jan '17 in Utah: http://www.dcski.com/forum/91448
And I am kind of blunt in that piece about how demanding it was for me. What I didn't say in that piece was that if you asked me what was my funnest powder day in recent years it would be a weekday in late Feb of '17 at Beaver Creek in about one foot of new snow with hardly anyone on the mtn around me and an empty chondola to use as my private lift during the day.

I think the fun of powder can be taken in small or large dose depending on the skier's skill. If you are an intermediate or better you can probably really enjoy about 6-8" of it. At that depth you can really enjoy the effortlessness of skiing and turning on a run with Blue Square pitch. If you are advanced you will probably have fun in 12" assuming it's reasonably light. That's about my sweet spot. But I see many experts in Utah who are used to deep snow and go hard at it all day in 18+" in very steep terrain having a blast, while I tend to struggle at those kind of depths. It's sort of a sliding scale, but I think just about all decent skiers/boarders can learn to have fun in 6-8" and that is a depth that Eastern weekend warriors have a good chance of experiencing a few times a season

 

[Bosco DaSkia]

this thread reeks of lame gaper.

Dude, PM Rontele.... He can help you find a totally nongaper board to bro down on.













Then again, you missed a top notch eastern dump to fly west..... Whats the gaper level on that move?

 

[Griswold]

this thread reeks of lame gaper.

Haha, sorry you think that way. I also have the max pass, and seeing that you ski alone on most of your trips would be happy to join you once to prove that to you.

Some of your comments in particular are exactly what I was wondering about. They are your opinions and that's fine, but I was wondering what others think about it. I.e. Do people really need to ski on fat indie skis in the east to not be considered a lame gaper? Does wondering if skiing trees too tight to turn just to brag about skiing "freshies" on a ski forum or Instagram really make you less lame than someone who is just as happy to ski a mogul run? Do you actually enjoy those trees that are too tight to turn or is that just the cool non lame gaper thing to do these days and that's the only reason why you do it?


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[mister moose]

How many people waiting in a lift corral on a powder day for the lift to open can actually ski powder well? I would argue less than half. So the question is how many of these people are sucked into the powder hype when they would actually enjoy a groomed trail more?

You either live it, breathe it, or you don't. If you don't want to make the drive, wait in the line, brave the cold, then you don't ski powder. If it's not worth it to you then fine. Some people run marathons, some watch The Voice, some climb in the Gunks. We all don't come from the same mold. Which is a good thing.

As to how many in the line ski powder well, I know many love the easy blue runs that got groomed at 2 am and now have just 3-4 inches on it and they love that. That's what they are in line for. Me, I'm in line for what has never seen a groomer.

Most average skiers and riders struggle in powder due to the combo of poor technique and equipment not well suited for the powder.

Poor technique - yes. Wrong equipment, not likely. Yes, you need something fat for crust and or heavy wet snow. That's not really powder. Powder is uniformly soft and deep. You can ski it with 70mm just fine.

I think the fun of powder can be taken in small or large dose depending on the skier's skill. If you are an intermediate or better you can probably really enjoy about 6-8" of it. At that depth you can really enjoy the effortlessness of skiing and turning on a run with Blue Square pitch. If you are advanced you will probably have fun in 12" assuming it's reasonably light. That's about my sweet spot. But I see many experts in Utah who are used to deep snow and go hard at it all day in 18+" in very steep terrain having a blast, while I tend to struggle at those kind of depths. It's sort of a sliding scale, but I think just about all decent skiers/boarders can learn to have fun in 6-8" and that is a depth that Eastern weekend warriors have a good chance of experiencing a few times a season

Yeah, sorta. The reason intermediates do ok in 6 inches or less is they still are mostly on the base. If they get a little too far forward or back the base is there to bail them out. If they get too skiddy and get their skis more than 40 degrees across the fall line for anything more than a quick check turn, more than likely they will trip on the snow and fall over.

If you are good with 12 inches but flounder in 18 you still aren't doing it right. You have to make the transition from skiing on a surface to skiing immersed in a fluid. Until you get that, and get the pressure management fore & aft and ski to ski, and get that an immersed ski is always tracking and must be steered with precision, you will flounder.

The reason fat skis are easier is they retain some characteristics of skiing on a surface due to the massive flotation. If you want to get good at powder, go beyond the training wheels of fat, and learn to fly something narrower.

Its not easy. And what makes it really hard is that for most it is hard to find and then it is gone in an hour. I can't fix that for you other than give you the name of a Cat Skiing operator. But for those that chased the cold smoke over the years, or lived out west, or worked at a mountain, or wore the white cross, or had a chronic white flu, I can tell you it is gobs of fun. As it only comes around a few times a season, yes we wait in line, yes we brave the cold, yes we have a dozen weather pages in our favorites folder, and yes we meticulously pack our ski bag the night before.



This is the classroom on Tuesday. If you're not here, in the moment, you're not going to learn.

 

[fbrissette]

All this talk about driving 5+ hours just to get a few "untouched" runs with mountains opening new terrain after the storm has me wondering, is powder really that great?

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Skiing virgin powder is better than sex. There, I said it. And for eastern skiers, sex is a lot easier to get than virgin powder.

Do note that I'm not talking about half tracked snow that we get for an hour or so after each snowfall in a resort, but real virgin powder where you pick your line with nobody in sight.

Since I can't afford heliskiing, that's why I keep in shape and skin-up at dawn after every big storm to get my fix. That's why I try to fly out west every year for some powder ski touring.

And to answer other posts:

- skiing virgin powder in trees is easy. It gets a bit trickier as it gets tracked. Most skiers simply don't get enough chance to acquire the skill.
- you can ski powder quite well on thin skis. It's definitely easier on fat skis however. But fat skis won't magically transform somebody's ability to ski powder. If you suck with thin skis, you'll suck with fat skis.

 

[Jully]

Haha, sorry you think that way. I also have the max pass, and seeing that you ski alone on most of your trips would be happy to join you once to prove that to you.

Some of your comments in particular are exactly what I was wondering about. They are your opinions and that's fine, but I was wondering what others think about it. I.e. Do people really need to ski on fat indie skis in the east to not be considered a lame gaper? Does wondering if skiing trees too tight to turn just to brag about skiing "freshies" on a ski forum or Instagram really make you less lame than someone who is just as happy to ski a mogul run? Do you actually enjoy those trees that are too tight to turn or is that just the cool non lame gaper thing to do these days and that's the only reason why you do it?


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I think it is all in the eye of the beholder. There are certainly people who do those actions just for the talk and social media proof, but I think they are pretty few and far between given how much work needs to be put it to make it happen. It would take a special kind of crazy to do the kind of driving some of the NJ and NYC residents on this board do for powder and tree skiing if they didn't actually loveit and strictly did it for bragging rights on AZ.

As for how well people ski trees and powder, I think you're correct in saying that many do not ski it 'well' but there is a big separation between how well you do something and how much you enjoy it. Skiing powder is different, so it makes perfect sense to me that most people are going to enjoy it. Skiing groomers, especially if you're an intermediate I could see getting pretty boring, but because powder is different and can be challenging, it stands to reason that the masses will enjoy it, even if they are not good at it.

The amount of effort that skiers and boarders on this forum put into skiing powder though, I think is truly out of enjoyment for it and nothing else. For the average run of the mill skier, they will enjoy it, but not as much as the people on this board (that is why we post here - we're not run of the mill) and they will not put in the same effort to ski it as those posting here.

 

[fbrissette]

Poor technique - yes. Wrong equipment, not likely. Yes, you need something fat for crust and or heavy wet snow. That's not really powder. Powder is uniformly soft and deep. You can ski it with 70mm just fine.

Spot on.

 

[Griswold]

I definitely agree with you Jully, but am kinda wondering how few and far between those people are. I was that way for a few years, telling myself how much I love powder and trees, and I really thought I did. I think last year I started to realize that's if it wasn't for the general hype in skiing the east now around it and finding secret stashes, I actually would have preferred other methods of skiing. I also caught a bad snow snake in rumble woods last January and really sprained my ankle badly. Every day after until my last day in May I felt it when making a right turn. Really has gotten me thinking about why I was in there in the first place risking hitting something just below the surface when most of the the time on those off map areas the consecutive turns are hards to make with it being so tight, even for what I'm sure are better skiers than me.


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[deadheadskier]

You could have sprained your ankle any number of ways. It's an inherent risk of the sport. Some aspects of skiing have greater risk and for many those risks have great appeal to overcome.

The appeal of the trees for me isn't just snow quality, it's the puzzle of looking several turns ahead, planning in my head how I get there and executing the turns to get me there. Sometimes a snow snake grabs you along the way. Hopefully when that happens you are balanced enough to react and have a bail out plan.

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[KustyTheKlown]

Haha, sorry you think that way. I also have the max pass, and seeing that you ski alone on most of your trips would be happy to join you once to prove that to you.

Some of your comments in particular are exactly what I was wondering about. They are your opinions and that's fine, but I was wondering what others think about it. I.e. Do people really need to ski on fat indie skis in the east to not be considered a lame gaper? Does wondering if skiing trees too tight to turn just to brag about skiing "freshies" on a ski forum or Instagram really make you less lame than someone who is just as happy to ski a mogul run? Do you actually enjoy those trees that are too tight to turn or is that just the cool non lame gaper thing to do these days and that's the only reason why you do it?


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I can assure you that I am not skiing on fat indie skis (and 106 is not fat) and chasing powder and skiing trees to impress you or anyone else. yea I like to post on instagram, but that's really just where I keep photos for myself without taking up local storage, and I think its fun to document my season. I do it for me. I'm certainly not doing 8-12 hours in the car every single weekend to impress anyone but myself.

and I don't think I ever bragged about skiing trees that are too tight to ski. I have repeatedly told people to stop crying about the length of their skis with respect to tree skiing, because I ski glades on 186 cm skis with absolutely no problem, and view the ski length argument to be a cop-out with people blaming their equipment for their own lack of skill

i'll be at loaf or whiteface/gore 12/26-28 depending on how the snow falls and whether they can get bracket basin open. won't be solo, but I'm always happy to take some laps. I'm not a contentious prick in real life, I promise.

 

[Jully]

The appeal of the trees for me isn't just snow quality, it's the puzzle of looking several turns ahead, planning in my head how I get there and executing the turns to get me there. Sometimes a snow snake grabs you along the way. Hopefully when that happens you are balanced enough to react and have a bail out plan.

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I only recently (a few years ago) got into tree skiing. I raced semi-seriously in college and was scared of injuring myself skiing trees and wasn't particularly good at them. Once out of college I wanted to challenge myself more and diversify what I skied. Trees, with that perspective, are the ultimate challenge. Variable conditions, different routes, hazards. It is a lot of fun. I'm not into super tight trees where you have to bushwhack your way through crap (though I don't know what people's exact definition of super tight is) but I don't want them to be so open that I don't have to think. I want the challenge and I think that is what attracts a good number of people to the trees.

Its kind of like basic science research. Your experiments fail 90% of the time, but you love it for the challenge and reward of really understanding something when it does work out. I think a successful tree skiing run has a higher success rate than 10% too. :razz:

 

[drjeff]

Poor technique - yes. Wrong equipment, not likely. Yes, you need something fat for crust and or heavy wet snow. That's not really powder. Powder is uniformly soft and deep. You can ski it with 70mm just fine.

Technique by far is the most important factor. No doubt about it. I do think though that modern equipment does play a decent roll as well. Heck, I can still vividly remember some deep (18" plus) powder days back in the late 80's where I was on my full cambered, stiff, 213 Rossi 3G race GS skis that were at best 70mm under foot just having a blast. I also known that nowadays, It's even more fun on my 187, full rockered, much softer, 108mm underfoot Blizzard Cochises that are my powder skis. They just make having fun, and more long lasting fun because of the less effort they take to get floating easier.

It's kind of like my golf clubs. I'm a 7 handicap. I can hit the ball solidly and a variety of ball flight shapes that I want to. I still have, in my basement, my mid 80's forged blade irons and 1st generation Taylormade metal woods (the woods are about the same size as my hybrid rescue club in my bag these days), and I break the old stuff out once or twice a year on the range. I can still hit them solid. It's much easier and enjoyable with my modern cavity backs and 460cc head titanium driver. The technique is the key thing. The technology is a bonus for those who have the technique and for those who don't the technology *can* be the difference between a tough day on the slopes or the golf course and a more enjoyable day.

And BTW, I was drooling when I saw your pics from Tuesday up on Kzone!! I'm sure even a PBR would of made the Moose palate happy after a December powder day like that! ;-) :beer:

 

[Highway Star]

I ski more powder in the east than the vast majority of people ski in the west. It must be so painful to suck at finding powder.