Jay Peak Area Experiences Development Explosion

[Tin Woodsman]

Yes, the location is problematic. But they did it there to access not just Ullr's, but those trails which were all underused.

Which trails were underused? I guess you're referring to Ullr's, JFK, and Wedelmaster? If so, that's certainly a laudable goal - there isn't much solid intermediate terrain on the hill. That said, why wouldn't a well done catwalk heading WSW towards those trails work? You'd still get 90% of the vertical available.

IIRC they also intended to be able to get access to that side of the mountain if the tram was down, but when they built the liftline, they took out WAY too many trees and it is very exposed as a result.

The topo clearly indicates that you could access just about the entire West Bowl side of the mountain with the lift unloading at Tower 2.

I'm not sure running it to near Bonaventure would have helped...in fact it would have made things much worse in the middle part of the mountain there.

How so? With the catwalk, presumably just as many people would head off towards the West Bowl as do at present. Perhaps slightly fewer given the added hassle, but not so much so that the plateau under the tram house would be noticeably more crowded than it already is.

But then again, what good does it do if it is not operating???

Exactly.

They compounded that problem, as you point out, by cutting down too many trees. the simnple fact is that by unloading at Tower 2, you'd that ridge its on effectively blocks the prevailing winds. This is evidenced by the difference in wind velocity on the Freezer when you're over Exhibition vs. when you get over that ridge over Goat Run.

 

[thetrailboss]

Which trails were underused? I guess you're referring to Ullr's, JFK, and Wedelmaster? If so, that's certainly a laudable goal - there isn't much solid intermediate terrain on the hill. That said, why wouldn't a well done catwalk heading WSW towards those trails work? You'd still get 90% of the vertical available.

Yep. Those are the trails that they wanted to get....most of their intermediate terrain.

The topo clearly indicates that you could access just about the entire West Bowl side of the mountain with the lift unloading at Tower 2.

How so? With the catwalk, presumably just as many people would head off towards the West Bowl as do at present. Perhaps slightly fewer given the added hassle, but not so much so that the plateau under the tram house would be noticeably more crowded than it already is.Yep. Those were the trails.

Maybe, but they wanted to have more access to those areas and get most of the vert. The HSQ does go a ways above the Bonaventure.

 

[from_the_NEK]

Maybe, but they wanted to have more access to those areas and get most of the vert. The HSQ does go a ways above the Bonaventure.

Only about 50-100 feet of difference in vert between the lifts. A cat walk from tower two would have been very long to get all the way over to Ullr's and I think a lot of people would be complaining about that instead of how cold the lift is if they would have designed it that way. I don't think unloading at tower two would have really solved very many problems. The best place to have installed the lift to protect it from the elements would have been right up the bottom of the bowl in the vicinity of JFK. However that would have moved the base of the lift a long way from the main Tram Base area.

 

[thetrailboss]

Only about 50-100 feet of difference in vert between the lifts. A cat walk from tower two would have been very long to get all the way over to Ullr's and I think a lot of people would be complaining about that instead of how cold the lift is if they would have designed it that way.

I agree. Anyone who has skied Jay knows that the area around the terminal of Bonaventure is a "malfunction junction" of sorts and that dumping anymore people there would not have been a good idea.

I don't think unloading at tower two would have really solved very many problems. The best place to have installed the lift to protect it from the elements would have been right up the bottom of the bowl in the vicinity of JFK. However that would have moved the base of the lift a long way from the main Tram Base area.

Well, maybe they could have started the lift at the same place and angled it to the right into that bowl...but that would have required a new liftline.

 

[from_the_NEK]

The best place to have installed the lift to protect it from the elements would have been right up the bottom of the bowl in the vicinity of JFK. However that would have moved the base of the lift a long way from the main Tram Base area.

The plans for the West Bowl have a lift running through this area that would connect the two sections of the ski area.

 

[from_the_NEK]

lets try that again

 

[thetrailboss]

I still can't believe that they want six-packs in that area....that is going to be overkill. HSQ's are enough. Any more word about the Jet or Bonaventure being upgraded? Heard that it *might* happen this season.....but I doubt it.

 

[JPTracker]

I still can't believe that they want six-packs in that area....that is going to be overkill. HSQ's are enough. Any more word about the Jet or Bonaventure being upgraded? Heard that it *might* happen this season.....but I doubt it.

Jay is currently talking to lift manufacturers for new lifts for both the West Bowl and to replace existing lifts. The lifts for the West Bowl will not be six packs as in that plan.

The plan I heard for the existing lifts is to replace the Bonaventure Quad with a high speed quad. Then the chairs from the old quad will be rehung on the Jet. The balance of the bonaventure parts will then be used to replace the Quenns T-bar and possibly relocate it for use in the park on Lower Canam.

 

[from_the_NEK]

I haven't heard anything about an upgrade to the State Side lifts. My guess is that they will run them "as is" for a few more years until customers start to grumble more. I do agree that the 6 packs are overkill :x . I kind of remember a post from the Jay Peak public relations guy on the resort bulletin board that the 6 packs would probably not happen and that the results would more than likely be quads which is fine with me.
The cool thing about the expansion plan is that you could take a run from the lift on the far side of the valley (the "4C 200 p/h lift) and then require only one lift ride to get all the way back to the State Side and the Jet triple.

 

[thetrailboss]

Jay is currently talking to lift manufacturers for new lifts for both the West Bowl and to replace existing lifts. The lifts for the West Bowl will not be six packs as in that plan.

The plan I heard for the existing lifts is to replace the Bonaventure Quad with a high speed quad. Then the chairs from the old quad will be rehung on the Jet. The balance of the bonaventure parts will then be used to replace the Quenns T-bar and possibly relocate it for use in the park on Lower Canam.

OK, so to make sure I got this right:

* New HSQ someday for Bonaventure.
* Move some of the quad chairs to the Jet.
* The rest of the Bonaventure would be moved to replace the Queen's T-Bar and make it a chairlift.
* The T-Bar would be used on Lower Can Am for the terrain park.

 

[from_the_NEK]

* New HSQ someday for Bonaventure.
* Move some of the quad chairs to the Jet.
* The rest of the Bonaventure would be moved to replace the Queen's T-Bar and make it a chairlift.
* The T-Bar would be used on Lower Can Am for the terrain park.

You understood correctly. I have heard this whispered but never put much faith in it. If they are actually talking to lift maunfactures maybe it is closer to a real possibility than I thought.

 

[from_the_NEK]

It actually makes sense to upgrade the lifts on that side of the mountain. If they install a whole bunch of high speed lifts over in the West Bowl, the crowds would all stay over there and probably ignore the state side area.
Wait a minute...that works for me! More State side Pow for me!!!

 

[JPTracker]

OK, so to make sure I got this right:

* New HSQ someday for Bonaventure.
* Move some of the quad chairs to the Jet.
* The rest of the Bonaventure would be moved to replace the Queen's T-Bar and make it a chairlift.
* The T-Bar would be used on Lower Can Am for the terrain park.

* New HSQ for Bonaventure.
* Move some of the quad chairs to the Jet.
* The Queens T-bar will be retired.
* The rest of the Bonaventure will replace the Queen's T-Bar and make it a chairlift and possibly relocating it such that you can access the terrain park.

The part about replacing the Queens T-Bar Bill was not very clear on when he was explaining this. But plans for the Bonaventure and Jet chairs sounded pretty definite. No time given for this to happen.

 

[Tin Woodsman]

Does this mean converting the Jet triple entirely to a quad, or some sort of triple/quad hybrid?

As for the Freezer, I think it would be far better for customers to grumble about the long- (not really) cat walk required to get to Ullr's than to grumble about not being able to get there from Tramside at all.

 

[kcyanks1]

I still can't believe that they want six-packs in that area....that is going to be overkill. HSQ's are enough. Any more word about the Jet or Bonaventure being upgraded? Heard that it *might* happen this season.....but I doubt it.

In last year's Challenge, Steve Wright I think said not to take the lift-type designations seriously. My impression was that they do not intend to install any 6-packs.

 

[thetrailboss]

As for the upgrades to Jet and Bonaventure, like other Jay projects, I would expect that the work will not take place for quite some time. They were crowing about the golf course for 20 years!

 

[from_the_NEK]

As for the Freezer, I think it would be far better for customers to grumble about the long- (not really) cat walk required to get to Ullr's than to grumble about not being able to get there from Tramside at all.

I don't agree with this statement. I don't think that routing the tower 2 area would have worked at all.

Pro and Cons to having the Freezer end at Tower 2 rather than the current location.
Pros:
1. slighly less time in the wind
2. fewer wind closings (I don't believe that the total # would be very different. when it is windy enough to close one upper mtn lift at Jay, it is typically windy enough to close them all)
3. shorter ride
4. easier access to River Quai, Can Am (not really a good thing for gappers)
5. Wouldn't have cut across the upper portion of StairCase and Everglade.

Cons:
1. Crowded lift unload area (It is already crowded there for the Bonny Quad unload)
2. Long cat walk to Ullrs (a cat walk over over to Ullrs would have been very long and unless it was a perfectly flat cat walk, it would dumped people out near the intersection with the Beaver Pond glade. This results in about 1/2 of the best vertical of the trail being under utilized).
3.a lift line going up through River Quai would suck
4. Goat would be an even WORSE bottle neck.
5. Shorter tram lines (you don't have to ride the tram to get access to all of the terain the current Flyer configuration serves)

 

[thetrailboss]

IIRC there WAS an access trail from Bonny to the Ullr area and it was a slog. Not many people used it.

 

[Tin Woodsman]

I don't agree with this statement. I don't think that routing the tower 2 area would have worked at all.

Pro and Cons to having the Freezer end at Tower 2 rather than the current location.
Pros:
1. slighly less time in the wind
2. fewer wind closings (I don't believe that the total # would be very different. when it is windy enough to close one upper mtn lift at Jay, it is typically windy enough to close them all)
3. shorter ride
4. easier access to River Quai, Can Am (not really a good thing for gappers)
5. Wouldn't have cut across the upper portion of StairCase and Everglade.

1) Slightly less time? How about "no" time. As you know from skiing there, the wind really doesn't hit you on the Freezer until you crest the ridge on which Tower 2 sits. An alignment up Quai would have been even more protected by that ridge until the very top - and there are ways to mitigate the impact when it's only at the offload (see top of Chair 22 at Mammoth).

2) I'd estimate dramatically fewer wind closings. Perhaps half as many. Again, if you are protected by the Tower 2 ridge, why would wind closures be as much of an issue? I'd guess that the Freezer would be open slightly more often than Bonny in that alignment.

3) Shorter by a good 45-60 seconds me thinks.

4) I'm pretty sure gapers aren't going to rush en masse to Upper Quai just b/c it's the liftline. They can all see it pretty clearly from the base, while on the Freezer, and on the tram. And the entrance to Can Am isn't exactly hidden right now.

Cons:
1. Crowded lift unload area (It is already crowded there for the Bonny Quad unload)
2. Long cat walk to Ullrs (a cat walk over over to Ullrs would have been very long and unless it was a perfectly flat cat walk, it would dumped people out near the intersection with the Beaver Pond glade. This results in about 1/2 of the best vertical of the trail being under utilized).
3.a lift line going up through River Quai would suck
4. Goat would be an even WORSE bottle neck.
5. Shorter tram lines (you don't have to ride the tram to get access to all of the terain the current Flyer configuration serves)

1) Won't argue with you there. But that's more people mulling around, not really anyone running into each other at speed. Not a big impact on the actual skiing experience.

2) Would the cat walk really be THAT long/flat? According to the map below, Wedelmaster already covers the second half of the trip. The first half of the catwalk would be roughly 275 meters and would have roughly 30 meters of elevation to work with. As you point out, you would miss out on the top 200 meters of vertical, which represetns just under half of the best vertical available. That said, you'd get virtually all of the other intermediate trails up there.

3) Why would a liftline on one side of River Quai suck?

4) I can see your point w/r/t adverse impacts on Goat. Perhaps aggressive signage could mitigate this. With everything, there is a risk/reward, and the miserable experience on the existing Freezer line (or its outright closure) is a high price to pay, IMHO.

5) Shorter tram lines would be a problem? Help me understand.

 

[JPTracker]

I don't agree with this statement. I don't think that routing the tower 2 area would have worked at all.

Cons:
1. Crowded lift unload area (It is already crowded there for the Bonny Quad unload)
2. Long cat walk to Ullrs (a cat walk over over to Ullrs would have been very long and unless it was a perfectly flat cat walk, it would dumped people out near the intersection with the Beaver Pond glade. This results in about 1/2 of the best vertical of the trail being under utilized).
3.a lift line going up through River Quai would suck
4. Goat would be an even WORSE bottle neck.
5. Shorter tram lines (you don't have to ride the tram to get access to all of the terain the current Flyer configuration serves)

1. Agree
2. the cat walk already exists to get to Ulers & JFK from the Bonaventure. You basically cut off half the good parts of both trails and add a long catwalk to the top half which is worse the the runout at the bottom. Right now when the Flyer is down and the Bonaventure is still going you rarely see anyone make that walk because is isn't worth it.
3. Agree
4. Goat would be worse because few people would go to Ulers & JFK
5. The Tram line would not change. People ride the Tram because its the Tram. I amazed when the Tram line is an hour long and I see people coming down Northway.

I think the Flyer is were it is because it fits best with the long term plan.

Besides Cold + Wind + Freezer = no lift line.