Jay Peak Conceptual Development Plan (2011-2016)

[from_the_NEK]

I'm going to defend the freezer.
Even though it is by far the most miserable cold/windy ride i've ever been on, IMO there really wasn't another place to put it at the time. When the Flyer went in, Bill S was not yet the owner of the mtn. The grand plans were just a twinkling in the back of his head. PLanning the location of the flyer on future dreams would have been nuts.
The flyer, as it was built was to be the people mover out of the tram base area. At the time they really needed the cache of having a fast 1500+ vert lift out of Tramside besides the low capacity Tram. If the base of the lift had been located anywhere besides right near the lodge everyone would be screaming about walking to get to the lift. When the Flyer went in and Beaver Pond (and Beyond) were put on the map, there was a huge marketing push that I think really paid off for Jay. The Flyer made that entire ridgeline accessable for far more people on a far more consistent basis.
Sure the ride is cold and annoying but I think in the end the negatives are outweighed by the positives the lift brought to the mountain.
Here's food for thought. Is it possible to retrofit the HSQ with a "mid-station" unload at the same spot as the old Green Mtn Double that could be utilized on typical wind hold days? This would still provide access to a large upper mtn trail pod on windy days (especially those days where the new Powerline 6 is shut down for wind), as well as providing access to the West Bowl area via a revised Northwest Passage that Rivercoil described.

 

[Tin Woodsman]

I'm going to defend the freezer.
Even though it is by far the most miserable cold/windy ride i've ever been on, IMO there really wasn't another place to put it at the time. When the Flyer went in, Bill S was not yet the owner of the mtn. The grand plans were just a twinkling in the back of his head.

He may not have been the owner, but he waqs the President and GM, and surely had the authority to make these sorts of mtn ops decisions accordingly.

Planning the location of the flyer on future dreams would have been nuts.

There were plenty of existing good reasons to have the terminus end somewhere else. Precluding a good layout for the West Bowl expansion 20 yrs later was just a lousy, unintended consequence.

The flyer, as it was built was to be the people mover out of the tram base area. At the time they really needed the cache of having a fast 1500+ vert lift out of Tramside besides the low capacity Tram.

And it still would have been if terminating near tower 2

If the base of the lift had been located anywhere besides right near the lodge everyone would be screaming about walking to get to the lift.

The current base of the lift is a little uphill from everything, so unless they were to move the base up the hill somehow, I'm not sure this would have been an issue.

When the Flyer went in and Beaver Pond (and Beyond) were put on the map, there was a huge marketing push that I think really paid off for Jay. The Flyer made that entire ridgeline accessable for far more people on a far more consistent basis.

I would argue that it wasn't Beaver Pond (and Beyond) that made Jay more marketable by themselves. It was the whole glading campaign across the entire mountain that caught people's attention. Let's be clear here - the people who buy all that housing at the base aren't spending most of their time in the glades. That's an intermediate/family skier who is much more likely to be found elsewhere.

Here's food for thought. Is it possible to retrofit the HSQ with a "mid-station" unload at the same spot as the old Green Mtn Double that could be utilized on typical wind hold days? This would still provide access to a large upper mtn trail pod on windy days (especially those days where the new Powerline 6 is shut down for wind), as well as providing access to the West Bowl area via a revised Northwest Passage that Rivercoil described.

My understanding is that trying to do that, while sounding seductively simple, is actually difficult and expensive. You essentially need to add a separate drive motor, so you have one for the top section and one for the bottom section. That means a few million dollars. I'd be pretty surprised if they ever ponied up that level of coin.

 

[riverc0il]

I would argue that it wasn't Beaver Pond (and Beyond) that made Jay more marketable by themselves. It was the whole glading campaign across the entire mountain that caught people's attention. Let's be clear here - the people who buy all that housing at the base aren't spending most of their time in the glades. That's an intermediate/family skier who is much more likely to be found elsewhere.

I'm not so sure I agree with the 2nd home owner thing. There are a LOT of moderate level skiers in the glades at Jay. I bet a lot of folks buying condos at Jay ski the glades. Jay isn't exactly a very friendly or nice mountain for intermediates, so I can't see many condo buying families being strictly intermediate either. I'd be surprised if the number of families with tree skiers that own condos is less than half. At other mountains, not so much.

Beaver Pond is an iconic glade. So much so, that I take issue with it and frequently call it out as over rated (I already did so earlier in this thread). It is "intermediate" friendly (in so far as you can survive it with a parallel turn without much skill). I knew about Beaver Pond before I went to Jay my first time. I'd argue that when a particular glade is discussed that much and with such reverence, that it has a higher than general glading effect on return visits and peer to peer mentions. I'm not attributing all of Jay's success to Beaver Pond, it clearly was a big glading campaign. But you can't just discount Jay's most well known, most talked about, and most iconic glade. That would be like saying Paradise at MRG was just part of the mountain's overall glade strategy. Just like Beaver Pond at Jay, Paradise is over rated and the most talked about glade at MRG. It is something in particular people think of when they think of the mountain itself.

I'd still like to see how a lift could have been fit into the tower two area. As I noted previously, you already have the Bonnie unload there. And on the other side of Tower Two is a very cliffy/rocky/steep area. You can't convert Goat into a lift line trail as it is a main artery. I'm not sure where your hypothetical lift would go.

But in an interesting twist, with the tentative six pack going up St. George's Prayer, the Bonnie will be removed and terrain once only serviced by the Freezer (and the Tram, if you can bear the wait) will now be serviced also by the new 6. That makes a two run cycle using your layout which I think is fine, lots of terrain at lots of mountains requires two chairs.

So between the new 6 pack and the West Bowl, it would make perfect sense to either shorten the Freezer to the Goat ridge line or revise it up Quai to the former Bonnie unload area. But the costs of that make it too expensive. And hind sight is 20/20. For when they built it, I think they made the right decision at the time: get the most people up to access the most terrain possible.

As bad as that lift is on a windy day, it is only bad on a windy day. Which is to say, it was sound positioning in all other respects except for the wind. Without good access to the Ullr's area, I'd bet Jay wouldn't have had as much success. You might not see the appeal in Ullr's, JFK, and Beaver Pond... but a lot of folks spend a lot of time on those trails.

 

[kingdom-tele]

could care less about which trails are iconic, that whole ridge and aspect is unique within the scope of the mountain because the woods get loaded in deeper than anywhere else inbounds, Big J being the other deepest windloaded aspect, its not so much that it fills in, all the woods collect, but those areas don't get wind ripped and compacted so badly, the snow is better - at least in my experience

agree with TW - its a travesty they cut a swath through the everglade aspect

they should start regen islands on Can Am too.

some places can get away with wide open, J not so much, they should embrace the wind and help collect its snow distribution

 

[fbrissette]

I would argue that it wasn't Beaver Pond (and Beyond) that made Jay more marketable by themselves. It was the whole glading campaign across the entire mountain that caught people's attention. Let's be clear here - the people who buy all that housing at the base aren't spending most of their time in the glades. That's an intermediate/family skier who is much more likely to be found elsewhere.

I will also have to take the defense of the Flyer. I disagree with the fact that it only services inconsequential terrain. Beaver and beyond gets the best snow on the mountain. Lots of stashes are in these glades and those unmarked. To rely on the Tram for easy access would be a waste of time. How many runs could you do in one day ? Besides enjoying the view, there is no reason to take the tram unless you ski the ridge or one of the four official runs.

The flyer is not much fun on windy days but the 2-3 minutes of severe pain is more than compensated by the positives. Wind hold ? Awesome opportunity for fresh tracks all day if you are willing to traverse off the top of Everglade and walk 2 minutes. Doubling back Metro and Bonnie is a pain but I prefer to see opportunities instead of inconveniences when the Flyer is on wind delay.

With respect to condo owners (I am one), there are quite a few tree skiers in there although not the majority . A few Big Jay regulars are condo owners too. However, for each condo tree skier, there are probably 5 Haynes skiers with shaped racing skis. Most of the owners also rent, and most of the time, to families who do not venture into trees (bushwalker and moons notwithstanding).

Having said that, with a proper lift servicing the Ulr's drainage area, and the new 6-pack, I see no reason not to re-position the Flyer lower on it's current line. We can always dream.

Francois

 

[gregnye]

Can you imagine the discussions that went on on in the 60s when the Tram was built? If the Internet existed back then there would have been a Facebook group to "Save the Skyline Chair."

BUMP (sorry)

Here it is!! I always wanted to find a picture of the skyline chair at Jay Peak!!
And today, Jay Peak posted some really cool old-time pictures on their Facebook page!

Here it is:

Or try the facebook link: http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10150895832429441&set=a.10150895832319441.434937.19659899440&type=1&theater

(Hopefully the image works, this is my first time posting an image)

Looks like a very cool chairlift (view wise, and literally cold with the Jay Wind!!) :smile:

 

[JPTracker]

News from the Jay Zoning Board Meeting Minutes:

New Mountain Learning Center:

Mr. Elander representing Jay Peak Resort presented the plans for a Mountain Learning Center to be located on State Side. He stated the rational for the location there is no room on tram side and the area on State Side has nice beginner terrain. He reviewed with the board the building floor plan, parking plan, and the site plan. It will be a single story building on a slab with radiant heating. A shingled roof with wood clapboard siding. It will hold 175 kids in kinder ski and 25 kids in daycare. A separate parking lot with 36 parking spaces will be constructed. The plan is to start at the end of July and hope to open December 15, 2012. He said this is a jay Peak project, not an EB 5 project.

Austria House Renovation:

Mr. Moore representing, Jay Peak Resort, presented plans for remodeling the Austria House. The plan is to create a market for groceries on the first floor. He said the second floor still be a banquet hall but will be remodeled. He said they are going to try to preserve as much of the character of the building as possible so the stucco will remain on the exterior and the size and configuration of the windows will remain. They plan to maintain existing features of exterior where possible. .... He said they hope to start demolition in the next few weeks and hope to complete the project by December 15, 2102.

Detail Plans are avalable in the ACT 250 Database

Parking:

He said they are looking to solve the parking issues at the mountain in several ways and phases. In the immediate phase they are creating 36 spaces at the Mountain Learning Center. A few spaces below Austria House. A few spaces where DEW trailers are will be used for valet. He said they have hired an engineer, Al Simon to do a feasibility study to put a deck over the lower lot on tram side. This could create approximately 85 spaces. Also a deck on the existing parking garage to create about 70 spaces. They are looking into building a new parking garage.

That parking garage is one of the ugliest things they built. Now they want to make it taller and make the lower lot into a parking garage. As if they haven't messed up Tramside enough already. Instead of building housing on every available piece of land they should create some new parking areas with shuttle buses as many other ski areas do.

 

[deadheadskier]

As much as I hate parking garages at ski areas, they truly are a more environmentally friendly option than sprawled single level parking lots.

 

[from_the_NEK]

With the huge retaining wall already looming over the lower lot, it would be really easy to put a deck over it expanding the upper lot by roughly 100 spaces. This would have minimal negative visual impact over the current retaiing wall as well as being (as DHS points out) more environmentally friendly over mowing down more forest to build satellite lots.

 

[BigJay]

As much as I hate parking garages at ski areas, they truly are a more environmentally friendly option than sprawled single level parking lots.

I hate the idea of having parking garages in a natural environment... but sprawling all over the place is not a realistic option IMO.

I don't like what's going on at the moment... what's next paved parking all over? A very 60s state of mind...

 

[riverc0il]

With the huge retaining wall already looming over the lower lot, it would be really easy to put a deck over it expanding the upper lot by roughly 100 spaces. This would have minimal negative visual impact over the current retaiing wall as well as being (as DHS points out) more environmentally friendly over mowing down more forest to build satellite lots.

I'm definitely not in favor of seeing parking garages at ski areas. But this is actually a really good idea with minimal impact that might even improve the look of things a little bit. That retaining wall is already but ugly.

 

[steamboat1]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xWwUJH70ubM

Made me think of this song.

 

[fbrissette]

Here are lots of fresh news from this morning Homeowner meeting:

This is what is happening this summer prior to next skiing season
- 30 Millions worth of project
- Sky Haus redone: food and beverage operation, sewer line, new interior and toilets, same footprint.
- New chair on Stateside (to near the Taxi) will be a Doppelmayr fixed grip quad (deal is done)
- Mountain learning center (ski school, ski rental and daycare, some food services) with a satellite left on Tramside. Two new conveyors 100 ft and 275 ft for absolute beginners. T-bar will be gone. Building and conveyors to be built north of Stateside Chalet in what is currently a wooded area.
- 100 lodging units (or beds ?) to be added (were not specifically discussed but I assume they are the additional Mountain/golf cottages and the new buildings near Stoney Path condos)
- Renovation of Austria house into a country store (not a food market but a country store).
- Parking: as mentioned earlier in this thread, looks like the extension of Tramside parking over the lower level parking is for real. 175 additional spots. They will also have additional parking space off-site for employees
-More shuttle buses
- Stateside chalet stays for one last year. Last chance to enjoy the wonderful toilets.


This is what was announced for next year:

- Replace the Bonnie with a new 6-pack along powerline as planned
- Additional stateside facilities: small hotel, rec center: 4 tennis courts, mountain biking trails (they will be lower mountain level trails, not planning to get the lifts running, they also briefly mentioned zip lines and climbing walls (not sure if they are for next year or further down the road). Money is secured for these.

West bowl (looks like it's coming)
Been investing lots of money to get all of the permitting, Walter Elander said he was confident we would be skiing on the West Bowl in the winter 2014-2015. Basically installing basic infrastructures summer 2013, lifts and runs summer 2014.

Stupid trail east of Timbuktu
Somebody asked a question about it. Still in the works but will not be implemented until the West Bowl is open with its additional glades. That leaves us at least 2 years to make Jay realize it is a dumb idea. A few of us talked to Walter Elander after the meeting to emphasize how bad an idea this was. Thinking of setting up a Facebook page about this.

Other bits:
- the pumphouse is nearing 200000 entries in 5 and a half months. Huge success.
- hockey tournaments and marriages are increasing dramatically, great for shoulder season.
- Jay purchased Snowline lodge. There are plans in the work to make it into a small medical facility.
- no news on repaving the 242
- Looks like the EB5 program will be extended for at least 3 years (Bill Stenger seemed extremely confident).

I am sure I am missing a few but other are likely to chime in. All in all, pretty good news from my perspective.

Francois

 

[riverc0il]

Thanks for the update, lots of good news there! Especially Sky Haus getting updated and getting F&B. Stateside bathrooms may suck but at least all the pissers work unlike Sky Haus. Really surprised to hear 2014 for West Bowl. I think a grass roots revolt against the Timbuk perimeter trail is probably a good idea, I can't believe they haven't taken this off the table yet.

 

[jaytrem]

Yeah, great update, thanks. Did anybody ask if the still plan to reuse the Bonnie quad for the Jet? With it's length and mybe the West Bowl coming soon I gotta wonder if it might be more useful elsewhere.

 

[gregnye]

Yay! A new lift! And Skyhouse!!!

And it seems like the westbowl may happen soon!

Excellent news (except for timbuktu trail). However, I tend to "always look on the bright side of life"

 

[fbrissette]

Yeah, great update, thanks. Did anybody ask if the still plan to reuse the Bonnie quad for the Jet? With it's length and mybe the West Bowl coming soon I gotta wonder if it might be more useful elsewhere.

This was not mentioned nor discussed.

Francois

 

[bigbog]

I'm definitely not in favor of seeing parking garages at ski areas. But this is actually a really good idea with minimal impact that might even improve the look of things a little bit. That retaining wall is already but ugly.

Not just "a really good idea", it's actually the ideal avenue of design-thought this society could use....and not just here, but Everywhere.... We need to adopt the Japanese way of design more than the old American West homesteader way if we're to hold on to "country", ***but of course undeveloped land isn't a part of the vocab of 90% of the visitors and $$$ = urban/suburban-dwellers...so I guess we shall see......

 

[riverc0il]

Not just "a really good idea", it's actually the ideal avenue of design-thought this society could use....and not just here, but Everywhere.... We need to adopt the Japanese way of design more than the old American West homesteader way if we're to hold on to "country", ***but of course undeveloped land isn't a part of the vocab of 90% of the visitors and $$$ = urban/suburban-dwellers...so I guess we shall see......

Are you suggesting multi-story parking garages should be in place at more ski areas?

 

[from_the_NEK]

Here are lots of fresh news from this morning Homeowner meeting:

- Jay purchased Snowline lodge. There are plans in the work to make it into a small medical facility.
Francois

Lots of good info inyour post. Thanks! :beer:

The Snowline lodge being turned into a medical clinic is pretty cool. No longer having to drive all the way to the hospital in Newport with a broken bone or torn muscle. Riverc0il knows about having to do that :razz:

Any discussion about Jay Peak's other "big" purchase at the meeting?