Killington

[ski_resort_observer]

I'm still waiting for the alleged industry insiders on this list to illuminate us as to how these changes, and the outrage that has ensued, are all part of the master plan that we just don't see yet. Take a look over at K-Zone to see the incompetence of the resort and the anger they've engendered.

Sometimes you just have to invoke Occam's Razor - that the most likely explanation is the simplest. These guys really are idiots.

Post #1 pretty much answers that as well as other posts in this thread. . We will know in a few years who the idiots really are....

From day 1 Powdr has advised that they will not put alot of money into kmart until they can improve the product, change the market and make a profit.

Not going into huge debt is a good idea but will they be able to pull it off...my take is it's doable but very risky. Lots of pain all around for the next couple of years. Remember Powdr sold Alpine Meadows right before they purchased kmart.

You only have to look at what happened to the Haystack Club to see that dumping big dollars right from the get go is not the way to be successful.

 

[millerm277]

From day 1 Powdr has advised that they will not put alot of money into kmart until they can improve the product, change the market and make a profit.

The market will only get further from what Powdr is trying to get at.

Think about it, the two groups that K wants are going to be gone with these changes.

Families, and rich people (or a combination of the two).

Families will leave because K is more expensive than anywhere else for children's programs, and doesn't give you much that's special for that price.

The rich will leave, because K is now as expensive or more expensive than most other NE ski areas (Just because they're rich, doesn't mean they don't want their money's worth), and doesn't offer much by way of luxury/amenities, and now it's no longer much of a bargain, especially compared with the likes of Stratton and Stowe. (This will drive regular people away as well)

What's left? College students that are more concerned with the drink prices on the access road, a few of the dedicated K skiers, and some experts who like the large amounts of expert trails/woods. All the groups that Powdr doesn't want.

You only have to look at what happened to the Haystack Club to see that dumping big dollars right from the get go is not the way to be successful.

True, although I don't think the Haystack Club is a good example. But, there is a big difference between 3m and dumping big dollars into a resort. ASC put 1-1.5m in the resort just to keep it running, Powdr's 3m isn't exactly groundbreaking...especially when you consider that Powdr spent a large portion of that 3m on things that are more matinence items than new, and things relatively unimportant to the skiing experience.(Such as, repaving large sections of road, replacing carpets, replacing bathrooms and such) The only on mountain improvements are a bunch of sections of new snowmaking pipe that they had no choice but to install to keep the system running, and another 30 low-e guns.

That doesn't amount to much for anyone, and it certainly doesn't command the price K is asking people to pay for it.

 

[tcharron]

The market will only get further from what Powdr is trying to get at.

Think about it, the two groups that K wants are going to be gone with these changes.

Families, and rich people (or a combination of the two).

Families will leave because K is more expensive than anywhere else for children's programs, and doesn't give you much that's special for that price.

On the other hand, I'm not sure they made as much money on the families that would be going for 'regular skiing' so much as the people coming to spend a bundle on a vacation. Time will tell.

How are rich people gone, tho?

 

[ski_resort_observer]

The market will only get further from what Powdr is trying to get at.

Think about it, the two groups that K wants are going to be gone with these changes.

Families, and rich people (or a combination of the two).

Families will leave because K is more expensive than anywhere else for children's programs, and doesn't give you much that's special for that price.

The rich will leave, because K is now as expensive or more expensive than most other NE ski areas (Just because they're rich, doesn't mean they don't want their money's worth), and doesn't offer much by way of luxury/amenities, and now it's no longer much of a bargain, especially compared with the likes of Stratton and Stowe. (This will drive regular people away as well)

What's left? College students that are more concerned with the drink prices on the access road, a few of the dedicated K skiers, and some experts who like the large amounts of expert trails/woods. All the groups that Powdr doesn't want.



True, although I don't think the Haystack Club is a good example. But, there is a big difference between 3m and dumping big dollars into a resort. ASC put 1-1.5m in the resort just to keep it running, Powdr's 3m isn't exactly groundbreaking...especially when you consider that Powdr spent a large portion of that 3m on things that are more matinence items than new, and things relatively unimportant to the skiing experience.(Such as, repaving large sections of road, replacing carpets, replacing bathrooms and such) The only on mountain improvements are a bunch of sections of new snowmaking pipe that they had no choice but to install to keep the system running, and another 30 low-e guns.

That doesn't amount to much for anyone, and it certainly doesn't command the price K is asking people to pay for it.

Alot of good points but it only confirms Powdr's announced plan in the Rutland Herald when they first bought the place and their reputation of running a resort as lean and mean. Cut expenses..they took a page out the Donald Trump book of cuts...make them hard and make them fast...save money.....improve snowmaking and grooming......refugees come back and others in their desired market target become customers.

As far as the kid's programs price increase they are betting that reduced group size and other changes will warrant the new prices. I think they are looking at least 2/3 years down the road with their plan. This coming winter will certainly be interesting. I was told that they hope to hire back many of the people they let go last summer....not exactly the accepted MO of gaining the staff's respect.

 

[BeanoNYC]

As long as you don't turn on the sprinkler I'm in

Well don't enable me by buying me shots.

 

[Tin Woodsman]

Post #1 pretty much answers that as well as other posts in this thread. . We will know in a few years who the idiots really are....

From day 1 Powdr has advised that they will not put alot of money into kmart until they can improve the product, change the market and make a profit.

Not going into huge debt is a good idea but will they be able to pull it off...my take is it's doable but very risky. Lots of pain all around for the next couple of years. Remember Powdr sold Alpine Meadows right before they purchased kmart.

You only have to look at what happened to the Haystack Club to see that dumping big dollars right from the get go is not the way to be successful.

It's not a black and white, binary issue. There aren't simply two choices - either A41 or the current offering. there are any number of gradations and combinations in between and outside of what they've chosen. It so happens that the combination of their pass pricing de minimums investment, prohibitively expensive children's programs, elimination of long-tenured employees, elimination of lifetime passes, and cessation of their participation in the CT Ski Council program all send a really bad message to just about every segment of the skiing population.

If they think they are going to go upmarket and attack Okemo and Stratton they've got another thing coming. Those mountains have a 20-30 year head start in working the wealthy New York, Northern Jersey, Westchester, Fairfield County, Hartford suburbs markets. Families can't afford to ski there any more. They've alienated all of the locals and share house owners. I think the way they are approaching the market is ridiculous - wrong strategy and awful execution from a public relations standpoint.

The Haystack Club is a lousy example - different business model, different skiing experience, a lot less snow. For every owner who has come in dumped money, and gone just as quick, there are those who have invested smartly and in the context of a long-term plan. One need only to contrast the former and current owners of ASC to see those two differing approaches in action. It is well known within the industry that K-Mart's physical plant is amongst the worst in the industry. Skiers feel that with the half-assed snowmaking efforts on favorite runs in recent years and the ever-shortening season. they've voted with their wallets - witness the dramatic decrease in skier visits there in the last 5-10 years. POWDR would have at least been well served giving some sort of hope that this is a year of analysis before tackling the major problems like aging snowmaking infrastructure, critical lift bottlenecks, inadequate base lodge and F&B options, and eventually the stalled Pico Interconnect. You need to give people some value on the hill before you start building a village in a transparent real-estate play. The lesson from Haystack is that you don't invest big money in a crap mountain that gets 160" of snow per year in the Northeast. K-Mart has the goods as a hill and a location. It has obvious deficiencies that, if addressed, could make it a contendah some day in the luxury market. Not sure how their current pricing and marketing efforts are designed to achieve that goal. At all.

 

[millerm277]

The Haystack Club is a lousy example - different business model, different skiing experience, a lot less snow. For every owner who has come in dumped money, and gone just as quick, there are those who have invested smartly and in the context of a long-term plan. One need only to contrast the former and current owners of ASC to see those two differing approaches in action. It is well known within the industry that K-Mart's physical plant is amongst the worst in the industry. Skiers feel that with the half-assed snowmaking efforts on favorite runs in recent years and the ever-shortening season. they've voted with their wallets - witness the dramatic decrease in skier visits there in the last 5-10 years. POWDR would have at least been well served giving some sort of hope that this is a year of analysis before tackling the major problems like aging snowmaking infrastructure, critical lift bottlenecks, inadequate base lodge and F&B options, and eventually the stalled Pico Interconnect. You need to give people some value on the hill before you start building a village in a transparent real-estate play. The lesson from Haystack is that you don't invest big money in a crap mountain that gets 160" of snow per year in the Northeast. K-Mart has the goods as a hill and a location. It has obvious deficiencies that, if addressed, could make it a contendah some day in the luxury market. Not sure how their current pricing and marketing efforts are designed to achieve that goal. At all.

Agreed with this, and the fact that Powdr is not spending much of that 3m on the obvious, cheap fixes to problems on the mountain, is a bit disturbing. (Ex: they could fix a large part of the bottleneck in the "mixing bowl" area at the bottom of snowdon with a very minor adjustment to Great Northern, that would just entail planting a few trees to keep it separate, or even just some fence to keep them apart....)

Killington's infrastructure is terrible on almost every level...the snowmaking had a ridiculous number of problems last year, incredibly ineffiencent, outdated and I doubt they have done enough to even get it running well, there are many lifts that need paint badly (even though they are painting a few, there are still more that need it), and the HSQ's (especially Superstar) seem to have far more problems than at any other area....possibly due to them being Yan's modified by Poma.

In my opinion, Killington needs a intelligent plan for where they are going, and they need to communicate it with their customers, instead of giving vague statements on everything but price increases. If they don't do that, and follow through (by making some real improvements over the next couple years), I think their numbers will drop by a large amount...there are better resorts for most people out there, and with the price increases, they will go see check out other places....and they won't come back.