Lifts that need replacement

[deadheadskier]

I have never been to Smuggs, but looking on google Earth, it appears as though Madonna I runs up a ridge for the most part as it ascends to the summit. This would makes it tough to move the base of the lift up as the only trail that crosses back to liftline is Link. Locating it at Link would shave 2000' off the bottom of the lift. Again I have not been there, but to me it looks like Madonna II has the terrain to handle being a High Speed Quad as it serves only intermediate terrain. Maybe if Madonna II, Morse, and Sterling were upgraded to High Speed Quads (6 Packs seem overkill), Madonna I could either be shortened or remain as is and be marketed as a Castlerock or MRG Single chair type of lift. Make the rest of the mountain modern and competitive with rival mountain lift systems, but keep Madona I and therefore the Summit of Madonna as a classic mostly expert trail pod, and market it as such.

I've long felt they should move the base of Madonna I to exactly where you suggest, where Link goes across. I think it would be fine that you couldn't access the lift from the Sterling side. That would only reduce traffic on the lift. I've also felt a HSQ for Madonna II makes sense. I'd rather see that than capacity raised over on Sterling. Liftline at Sterling sucks, but the lift is fine. A HSQ on II would reduce the line and trail traffic on Sterling considerably.

 

[Quietman]

And now its new High Speed lifts do not increase skier visits. Well tell that to almost every other successful ski corporation that invests in modern lifts. I know Peaks came from the midwest where lifts tend to be very short, but that is not a reason to avoid spending money on long lifts at their New England resorts.

They did put a HS quad in a Crotched 2 years ago(not a very long lift), and from what I see, skier visits have not increased much and are still well below Pat's Peak and it's slow chairs.

Two reasons:
1) They may have to replace the chair lifts whether they want to or not given their age.
2) A well run business should always seek growth.

I agree somewhat, but the biggest driver in today's business environment is that a well run business MAKES MONEY. Smuggs seems to be able to keep people coming with very minimal capital investments year after year. Why spend money if you don't need to? My first couple of posts on this site got me blasted as a Smuggs hater because I complained of long lines and slow lifts. I will not make a return visit, but apparently there are enough people who will.

One additional comment, the Madonna 1 Hall double is an amazing lift. Is there another 50 year old slow double with 2k vert still in existence today? The way that the towers are configured to keep it close to the ground and avoid the wind really impressed me. Yes, I am a lift nut!

 

[steamboat1]

One additional comment, the Madonna 1 Hall double is an amazing lift. Is there another 50 year old slow double with 2k vert still in existence today? The way that the towers are configured to keep it close to the ground and avoid the wind really impressed me. Yes, I am a lift nut!

That's not the way the lift was originally configured. Originally it ran pretty high off the ground just past the mid station. Yeah I'm an old fuck.

 

[Savemeasammy]

RE: Madonna I. Yes, xlr8r, the most sensible spot to relocate is at the intersection of link. IMO it would disrupt too much terrain to relocate near the present midstation - however if it WERE located right there, at the base of the liftline headwall, it would suitably scare the sh!t out of people who don't belong up top!

I do agree that the terrain off of Madonna II can handle the traffic of a HSQ, but the few times I've been when that lift was spinning, it was basically ski-on, even though Madonna I and Strerling were packed. Maybe a HSQ right there would attract more of the intermediate masses that WOULD utilize that terrain.

Does anyone know if Smuggs owns the land to the summit of Morse? There is another opportunity right there...


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[MadMadWorld]

RE: Madonna I. Yes, xlr8r, the most sensible spot to relocate is at the intersection of link. IMO it would disrupt too much terrain to relocate near the present midstation - however if it WERE located right there, at the base of the liftline headwall, it would suitably scare the sh!t out of people who don't belong up top!

I do agree that the terrain off of Madonna II can handle the traffic of a HSQ, but the few times I've been when that lift was spinning, it was basically ski-on, even though Madonna I and Strerling were packed. Maybe a HSQ right there would attract more of the intermediate masses that WOULD utilize that terrain.

Does anyone know if Smuggs owns the land to the summit of Morse? There is another opportunity right there...


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Exactly. A HSQ really wouldn't help Madonna II at all. The terrain over there is pretty boring in my opinion. Some of glades over there can be fun but it's a long traverse back. I think a HSQ on Sterling makes a lot more sense. Folks at Smuggs will bounce back and forth between Sterling and Madonna based on wait time so any way to alleviate congestion at one of the lifts will help spread out the crowds.

 

[MadMadWorld]

Absolutely. Yes. Especially if they upgraded Sterling as well.

It would alleviate the, "well, both lifts are turbo-slow, so we may as well go all the way to the top" mentality, and not only would it take some pressure off Madonna I, but I think it would help herd more intermediates to Sterling, which would be a welcome thing since it's better terrain for them, and IMO, Sterling is under-utilized in that regard.

As for the slopes of Madonna I, I never feel the black diamonds are crowded. Ever. IMO the most "crowded" trail at Smuggs (and I think even this is reaching a bit) is Upper Chilcoot, but how many eastern mountains dont count a summit intermediate as their most trafficked trail? Probably not many.



You missed the point entirely. It has nothing to do with "comparing" one to the other, it has to do with scale and mathematics.

No I got your point it still doesn't make sense to anyone but you.

And by the way you are crazy if you think trails like Liftline, Freefall, Robin's and Black Hole can handle the extra traffic. I don't think you know the mountain as well as you think you do.

 

[deadheadskier]

Does anyone know if Smuggs owns the land to the summit of Morse? There is another opportunity right there...


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Can't go further up Morse. Largest Black Bear habitat in the State. At least that's what I was told doing land surveys in there as a UVM student in the School of Natural Resources.

 

[MadMadWorld]

Can't go further up Morse. Largest Black Bear habitat in the State. At least that's what I was told doing land surveys in there as a UVM student in the School of Natural Resources.

I think the people that told you that might be Smuggs locals

 

[deadheadskier]

No, just some Act 250 State official Nazis. This was prior to the Morse Highlands area going in. That pod was supposed to be much larger than what it is.

I will say, I've never encountered a higher density of Beech trees complete with bear claw markings anywhere I've ever walked in the woods. You want to see a bear? Go about 500 feet up and slightly east of Morse Highlands and there's a pretty good bet you'll see one.

 

[xlr8r]

Exactly. A HSQ really wouldn't help Madonna II at all. The terrain over there is pretty boring in my opinion. Some of glades over there can be fun but it's a long traverse back. I think a HSQ on Sterling makes a lot more sense. Folks at Smuggs will bounce back and forth between Sterling and Madonna based on wait time so any way to alleviate congestion at one of the lifts will help spread out the crowds.

My though is that if you move the base of Madonna I up to Link, then more people will need to ride Madonna II to access the base of Madonna I. Madonna II will then have much longer lines, but Madonna I's lines might decrease, or at least the ride will be shorter. Therefore upgrading Madonna II to a high speed quad makes sense. Even if Madonna I remains as is, upgradeing Madonna II will shorten Madonna I's lines as a lot of people would prefer to ride a fast comfortable lift, even if it accesses less interesting terrain.

Again I have not been to Smuggs, but their antique lifts is the main reason why. I am not going to drive over 8 hours round trip to wait in lines all day, and only get 10 or so runs in. The terrain looks awesome, but not worth the drive plus waiting in lines. That is why I think their best strategy would be to upgrade the three other main lifts, Morse, Sterling, and Madonna II, and make Madonna I a Castlerock like pod for classic skiing.

 

[MadMadWorld]

No, just some Act 250 State official Nazis. This was prior to the Morse Highlands area going in. That pod was supposed to be much larger than what it is.

I will say, I've never encountered a higher density of Beech trees complete with bear claw markings anywhere I've ever walked in the woods. You want to see a bear? Go about 500 feet up and slightly east of Morse Highlands and there's a pretty good bet you'll see one.

I believe it. Thankfully it's safer it's much safer in the winter!

 

[MadMadWorld]

My though is that if you move the base of Madonna I up to Link, then more people will need to ride Madonna II to access the base of Madonna I. Madonna II will then have much longer lines, but Madonna I's lines might decrease, or at least the ride will be shorter. Therefore upgrading Madonna II to a high speed quad makes sense. Even if Madonna I remains as is, upgradeing Madonna II will shorten Madonna I's lines as a lot of people would prefer to ride a fast comfortable lift, even if it accesses less interesting terrain.

Again I have not been to Smuggs, but their antique lifts is the main reason why. I am not going to drive over 8 hours round trip to wait in lines all day, and only get 10 or so runs in. The terrain looks awesome, but not worth the drive plus waiting in lines. That is why I think their best strategy would be to upgrade the three other main lifts, Morse, Sterling, and Madonna II, and make Madonna I a Castlerock like pod for classic skiing.

I guess this could work. I just think it would be a shit show with folks trying to move around the mountain. They could do everything you say but at what cost? They put in a few HSQ and increase there lift ticket to 75-80 dollars.....now what makes them any different then Stowe? Why bother driving an extra 45 minutes around the notch? This isn't a comment about what you said but just a generalization.....they have branded themselves in a way that allows them to survive year after year. We have seen ski areas sell off or close because of local competition (Magic, Glen Ellen, Haystack, etc.). I don't know many places that could survive being 2 miles from Stowe. They have figured out a way to do it and though it may not be a place for everyone I think it is a sound business model for their situation.

 

[Savemeasammy]

No, just some Act 250 State official Nazis. This was prior to the Morse Highlands area going in. That pod was supposed to be much larger than what it is.

I will say, I've never encountered a higher density of Beech trees complete with bear claw markings anywhere I've ever walked in the woods. You want to see a bear? Go about 500 feet up and slightly east of Morse Highlands and there's a pretty good bet you'll see one.

I this seems a bit unfortunate to me... Bears and skiers are using the mountain during opposite seasons. I'm sure that something could be done to have minimal effect on the beech trees up there.


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[Savemeasammy]

Can't go further up Morse. Largest Black Bear habitat in the State. At least that's what I was told doing land surveys in there as a UVM student in the School of Natural Resources.

What does this even mean, really? By what measure? By what margin over other areas. I'm always skeptical of claims like this, because the numbers can be massaged in a convenient way to make this claim sound true...!


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[MadMadWorld]

I this seems a bit unfortunate to me... Bears and skiers are using the mountain during opposite seasons. I'm sure that something could be done to have minimal effect on the beech trees up there.


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Maybe we can broker a deal with them. I've never met a Black Bear that isn't reasonable

 

[deadheadskier]

What does this even mean, really? By what measure? By what margin over other areas. I'm always skeptical of claims like this, because the numbers can be massaged in a convenient way to make this claim sound true...!


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Beech trees provide a critical source of food in the fall for Black Bears prior to hibernation.

http://badger.uvm.edu/omeka/exhibit...h-introduction/american-beech-bark-and-black-

As I said, I've never seen a higher concentration of Beech trees than in that location. There are acres upon acres of forest with a high concentration of them; maybe 50% or so of the trees were Beech. It would've been impossible to cut any trails, lift lines etc. without removing some of them. The state would not allow any development within 500 yards of the area. They even shot down plans for some cross-country skiing trails in the area.

 

[Savemeasammy]

Beech trees provide a critical source of food in the fall for Black Bears prior to hibernation.

http://badger.uvm.edu/omeka/exhibit...h-introduction/american-beech-bark-and-black-

As I said, I've never seen a higher concentration of Beech trees than in that location. There are acres upon acres of forest with a high concentration of them; maybe 50% or so of the trees were Beech. It would've been impossible to cut any trails, lift lines etc. without removing some of them. The state would not allow any development within 500 yards of the area. They even shot down plans for some cross-country skiing trails in the area.

Sorry, I understood the beech tree thing. It's the "largest black bear habit" statement that could be subject to interpretation IMO. I guess it's a non-issue though, but I think it's a shame. Skiers and black bears peacefully coexist with one-another ski season after ski season.

As an aside, I'm sure that Smuggs could actively manage the beech tree population, and there would be minimal disruption to the bears... Oh well, it just seems a shame that that area cannot be developed.


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[deadheadskier]

People still ski in the area. You just have to do your own work for it. I haven't skied that location personally, but I imagine it's pretty awesome mid to low angle tree skiing. The trees are very well spaced.

I'm guessing one consideration other than tree removal that might have been considered in not allowing development is that perhaps the noise generated by grooming equipment might disturb hibernating bears?

Who knows. Given how unique the ecology is there and how massive Smuggs terrain is on other parts of the mountain, I don't really have an issue with the area being off limits to development.

 

[BenedictGomez]

I have not been to Smuggs, but their antique lifts is the main reason why.

Exhibit: A.

My first couple of posts on this site got me blasted as a Smuggs hater because I complained of long lines and slow lifts. I will not make a return visit

Exhibit: B


The defense rests its' case.

 

[BenedictGomez]

A HSQ on II would reduce the line and trail traffic on Sterling considerably.

I dont get that. They're 2 different mountains. If anything, the first lift I'd upgrade at Smuggs would be Sterling.

No I got your point it still doesn't make sense to anyone but you.

And by the way you are crazy if you think trails like Liftline, Freefall, Robin's and Black Hole can handle the extra traffic. I don't think you know the mountain as well as you think you do.

I don't think you've skied Smuggs if you think those trails are EVER (and I do mean ever) "crowded". Hell, even on President's Saturday those trails arent really "crowded". Unless your definition of "crowded" is, "I had to wait 20 seconds for someone in my line". That's just not a beef or a complaint in my world.

Regardless of that subjectivity, you're not even in the right zip code on this matter.

The most crowded trails off Madonna I are clearly Upper Chilcoot and Upper Drifter, which are summit intermediates, which are (near) always the most crowded trails at any venue. You're forced onto those trails unless you hit Liftline, which virtually nobody does given it's (IMO) one of the hardest on-map trails east of the Mississippi, so they de facto receive the highest skier volume.