long division; stifles their creativity

[hammer]

BTW, The lattice math approach is a wonderful method in showing structure to the associative and distributive properties of the multiplication operator however spending alot time on it as a computational skill is a complete waste.

Say again? :blink:

 

[ctenidae]

But realistically the groundwork, challenge, and grading standards are totally the realm of the school and the teachers. Because none of my exhortations to strive for success and embrace challenge matters a bit if my kids are being taught nonsense and they get an A for doing work well below their capabilities.

Absolutely. And the impetus for those standards and challenge has to come from parents, being involved in the schools, paying attention to who is on the school board and what they're doing, knowing who the teachers are and what they're doing.

 

[JimG.]

Absolutely. And the impetus for those standards and challenge has to come from parents, being involved in the schools, paying attention to who is on the school board and what they're doing, knowing who the teachers are and what they're doing.

And paying our taxes; which brings this topic full circle from my point of view...we moved 3 years ago to be in a school district with other families who think this way.

 

[Paul]

I have a conference call in a few minutes, so I don't have time right now to get into this, but I just wanted to add that I agree on virtually all points that have been presented. I have a 6 year-old (first grade) and seeing how things are presented to her are pretty disturbing. It really seems that many schools are starting to turn their efforts away from academia, and more towards social skills and self esteem building, among other things that, as a parent, I would rather teach her myself.

I'm beginning to wage war on the schools, but if this proves to be quixotic (which it likely will) it may be time to move.

*sigh....

 

[John84]

It really shocks me when we get a test back and you hear kids asking "What'd you get?" "I got a 25/30." "Oh, is that a B?" "I'm not sure, can I borrow your calculator?" It boggles my mind that these kids have made it this far in math (Honors PreCalculus), yet they can't do simple math.

 

[ctenidae]

It really shocks me when we get a test back and you hear kids asking "What'd you get?" "I got a 25/30." "Oh, is that a B?" "I'm not sure, can I borrow your calculator?" It boggles my mind that these kids have made it this far in math (Honors PreCalculus), yet they can't do simple math.

Try giving a store clerk $5.25 on a $4.15 bill. Amazes me every single time.
This all brings up a deeper pet-peeve issue of mine- Learned Helplessness. People actually learn how to not be able to do things on their own. Once you start noticing it, it gets quite depressing.

Fortunately, I don't need any help getting a bottle of bourbon open.

 

[JimG.]

Try giving a store clerk $5.25 on a $4.15 bill. Amazes me every single time.
This all brings up a deeper pet-peeve issue of mine- Learned Helplessness. People actually learn how to not be able to do things on their own. Once you start noticing it, it gets quite depressing.

Fortunately, I don't need any help getting a bottle of bourbon open.

No no, please don't start me on the learned helplessness issue.

 

[jack97]

BTW, The lattice math approach is a wonderful method in showing structure to the associative and distributive properties of the multiplication operator however spending alot time on it as a computational skill is a complete waste.

Say again? :blink:

Sorry for the poor wording.

My point, the various multi digit multiplication algorithms that are being taught all share the fact they must produce the same answers. This is based on fundamental algebraic properties (associative, commutative and distributive). The lattice approach and other algorthims can be broken down to show these properties. As you go further in advance math; Analytical Geometry, Calculus, Matrix Algebra and so on, you have to look for organization (structure) in these properties as well as other concepts to effectively use them.

I remember a third party conversation; someone overheard his MIT math professor asking a computer salesperson, “yeah, but do I really need a computer to do math”. My other point, there’s another level of math that our education policy makers have not been exposed to. Probably the reason they are policy makers. ….. the blind leading the blind.

 

[hammer]

No no, please don't start me on the learned helplessness issue.

That's not unique to this generation...I know of at least a few men that have or have had their spouses do everything around the house, and if they are left to their own would have a very hard time cooking a meal for themselves, doing laundry, etc.

 

[hammer]

Sorry for the poor wording.

My point, the various multi digit multiplication algorithms that are being taught all share the fact they must produce the same answers. This is based on fundamental algebraic properties (associative, commutative and distributive). The lattice approach and other algorthims can be broken down to show these properties. As you go further in advance math; Analytical Geometry, Calculus, Matrix Algebra and so on, you have to look for organization (structure) in these properties as well as other concepts to effectively use them.

I remember a third party conversation; someone overheard his MIT math professor asking a computer salesperson, “yeah, but do I really need a computer to do math”. My other point, there’s another level of math that our education policy makers have not been exposed to. Probably the reason they are policy makers. ….. the blind leading the blind.

Sorry about my igonorance...as an engineer, I guess I've been doing various levels of math for so long that I haven't thought of the concepts behind what I'm doing.

One other thing: I'd actually like to know what kind of math background our math teachers (in general) and math education policy makers really have...

 

[JimG.]

That's not unique to this generation...I know of at least a few men that have or have had their spouses do everything around the house, and if they are left to their own would have a very hard time cooking a meal for themselves, doing laundry, etc.

I hate to admit it about the man I admire most, but this is my Dad.

He could flood the basement doing laundry, then burn the wet clothes drying them.

He once put a pot of water to boil for a cup of tea...when he finally came back to it, the water had evaporated and the bottom of the pot had burned clean through.

And when I was very little, I had a taste for sardines...so I asked my Dad to give me some sardines. Somehow, he confused the sardines with liverwurst. It took me another 20 years to regain my taste for sardines AND liverwurst.

 

[ctenidae]

I hate to admit it about the man I admire most, but this is my Dad.

He could flood the basement doing laundry, then burn the wet clothes drying them.

He once put a pot of water to boil for a cup of tea...when he finally came back to it, the water had evaporated and the bottom of the pot had burned clean through.

And when I was very little, I had a taste for sardines...so I asked my Dad to give me some sardines. Somehow, he confused the sardines with liverwurst. It took me another 20 years to regain my taste for sardines AND liverwurst.

I don't think that's learned helplessness- that's brilliance. How often did he get asked to do laundry, feed the kids, or cook? Not often, I bet.

 

[jack97]

I don't think that's learned helplessness- that's brilliance. How often did he get asked to do laundry, feed the kids, or cook? Not often, I bet.

I think we have generation of men that got their brains knocked silly. I can't figure out how they got away with this.

 

[ctenidae]

I think we have generation of men that got their brains knocked silly. I can't figure out how they got away with this.

I blame Bill Cosby.

 

[JimG.]

I don't think that's learned helplessness- that's brilliance. How often did he get asked to do laundry, feed the kids, or cook? Not often, I bet.

Hmmm...life works in strange ways. My Mom got sick of it and divorced him. He remarried and his wife is an accomplished ballerina who is now a dance professor. She spends alot of time choreographing shows...in fact she is in charge of the Nutcracker every year.

Guess what? She doesn't cook or clean or do laundry either. When we visit it's just pitiful. The refrigerator is empty because neither of them know what to do with food other than eat it. He complains that every meal is eat out or take out. Clothes are usually in a pile somewhere...the clean stuff upstairs and the dirty in the laundry room. They don't know to separate the whites from the colors...my dad has alot of "tie dyed" underwear. Dust bunnies live under all the furniture.

Yes, life is funny.

 

[ctenidae]

Yes, life is funny.

But can he do long division?

 

[JimG.]

But can he do long division?

Yes, but his penmanship is atrocious.

 

[NYDrew]

are you freaking kidding me!!!!!!! I mentor in a middle school and hear this kinda crap all day...but this one is new.

 

[Hawkshot99]

I can cook and do my laundry.


Oh yea, and I think I can still do long division( just wrote a problem in my head), subtraction, make change......

All this even with our school systems. Must be that Arlington distric Jim speaks of.:razz:

 

[JimG.]

All this even with our school systems. Must be that Arlington distric Jim speaks of.:razz:

Oh, it's far from perfect, but Arlington is a top rated school district in NY.

Admittedly that's judged based on today's learning standards.