long division; stifles their creativity

[hammer]

Must be that Arlington distric Jim speaks of.:razz:

"distric"...I guess that Arlington needs work on teaching spelling? :wink:






Sorry, couldn't resist...

 

[jack97]

Here's a web site of BU's education program. Teachers specialize in teaching math. Lots of courses on how to teach math. Limited math studies, requirements start during the master program. On paper, this sounds good, the approach breaks downs if the teaching methods are flawed.

http://www.bu.edu/sed/students/prospective/undergraduate/programs/math/index.html
http://www.bu.edu/sed/students/prospective/graduate/programs/math/index.html

 

[hammer]

Here's a web site of BU's education program. Teachers specialize in teaching math. Lots of courses on how to teach math. Limited math studies, requirements start during the master program. On paper, this sounds good, the approach breaks downs if the teaching methods are flawed.

http://www.bu.edu/sed/students/prospective/undergraduate/programs/math/index.html
http://www.bu.edu/sed/students/prospective/graduate/programs/math/index.html

I guess this gets into the philosophy of "depth of knowledge in the subject matter" vs "knowledge of teaching methods"...

In any case, when trying to sort out math homework with my kids, I tend to run into a lot of problems associated with methods...it seems that more emphasis is put on the "latest and greatest" method for doing the basics and not enough emphasis is put on the final product (i.e., the answer).

 

[JimG.]

"distric"...I guess that Arlington needs work on teaching spelling? :wink:






Sorry, couldn't resist...

Hawkshot is killing me here...change his name to Monkey Wrench.

 

[ctenidae]

Here's a web site of BU's education program. Teachers specialize in teaching math. Lots of courses on how to teach math. Limited math studies, requirements start during the master program. On paper, this sounds good, the approach breaks downs if the teaching methods are flawed.

http://www.bu.edu/sed/students/prospective/undergraduate/programs/math/index.html
http://www.bu.edu/sed/students/prospective/graduate/programs/math/index.html

Interesting. At Northeastern you have to get a BS in Math, then you can take the education courses.

 

[jack97]

In any case, when trying to sort out math homework with my kids, I tend to run into a lot of problems associated with methods...it seems that more emphasis is put on the "latest and greatest" method for doing the basics and not enough emphasis is put on the final product (i.e., the answer).

That’s crux of the issue.

I’m an engineer also. I remember my undergrad freshman and especially sophomore courses, we were taught lots of methods for basically solving the same problems. Things started to click as a junior but after constant repetition of problem solving with one or two methods. Once this happens I could see how the other methods relate, its pros and cons.

That’s why I’m a believer in drilling, similar to the Kumon approach.

 

[Hawkshot99]

Hawkshot is killing me here...change his name to Monkey Wrench.

Hey I thought we were talking math here:razz:

 

[smitty77]

Dr. Warfield said. “That’s why we have so many parents who see their children having trouble with math and say ‘Honey, don’t worry. I never could do math either.’ ”


I think we may have evidence of at least part of the problem, here. Not dinging on the parents here, but parents, in general, have got to take some responsibility for their children's education. It's good to see a significant group doing so.

Bingo! I know a few people that can't read, write, or do math beyond a 3rd grade level, and they all have diplomas. Kids go with what they know. If they continually see mom and dad go "Well... 6 and 2, carry the 4, plus the tax.... Aww, screw it, the {bill / legal agreement / H&R Block tax form} looks right to me." then they'll have no incentive to learn the basics either.

Unless the wife opts-out at the last minute, it looks like we're home schooling the kids. She has a degree in elementary education, I have one in engineering with enough coursework in math to qualify for a minor. I love math (algebra, calculus, trig) and physics. I know enough chemisty to be dangerous. With our collective knowledge I think we have a legitimate shot at putting a good education into our children. It's becoming more apparent every year that if we don't do it, no one will. From what I gather, a lot of other families in our town are going the same route as the school system fights to keep itself alive.

Good thread. Lots of smart folks around here.
Smitty

 

[ctenidae]

From what I gather, a lot of other families in our town are going the same route as the school system fights to keep itself alive.

Might be worth looking onto doing sort of group homeschooling. I know some communities have groups where parents with specific knowledge act as "tutors" to everyone else's kids.

 

[bvibert]

Bingo! I know a few people that can't read, write, or do math beyond a 3rd grade level, and they all have diplomas. Kids go with what they know. If they continually see mom and dad go "Well... 6 and 2, carry the 4, plus the tax.... Aww, screw it, the {bill / legal agreement / H&R Block tax form} looks right to me." then they'll have no incentive to learn the basics either.

Unless the wife opts-out at the last minute, it looks like we're home schooling the kids. She has a degree in elementary education, I have one in engineering with enough coursework in math to qualify for a minor. I love math (algebra, calculus, trig) and physics. I know enough chemisty to be dangerous. With our collective knowledge I think we have a legitimate shot at putting a good education into our children. It's becoming more apparent every year that if we don't do it, no one will. From what I gather, a lot of other families in our town are going the same route as the school system fights to keep itself alive.

Good thread. Lots of smart folks around here.
Smitty

We're seriously considering the home schooling route too, though we have a few years to decide...

 

[Marc]

Might be worth looking onto doing sort of group homeschooling. I know some communities have groups where parents with specific knowledge act as "tutors" to everyone else's kids.

I was homeschooled. The curriculum included things like:

Woodchopping
Sealing the driveway and the human response
Cutting the grass and benefits to character

 

[catskills]

We're seriously considering the home schooling route too, though we have a few years to decide...

Good plan. When our youngest child started second grade she would write a 30 word story with only three words spelled correctly. Our daughter was actually above the bell shaped curve for her class reading/writing ability. This was all thanks to the brand new first grade teacher trained in whole language. Not one of the other teachers in the school had ever been trained in whole language. The second grade teacher had a real problem on her hands. Solution my wife worked with our daughter and got her back on track. Once our daughter learned to read it was hard to stop her. She would read books under the covers with a flashlight to all hours of the night. Most of the other parents had to do the same. It wasn't long before the principal was replaced.

 

[ctenidae]

Not one of the other teachers in the school had ever been trained in whole language.

I think you may have your terms switched. Whole Language has been repeatedly proven to benefit about 20% of students. The rest get left terminally behind. Phonics, on the other hand, works for 80% of students, and stays with them forever. Guess which way reading has been taught in the US for the past 30 years.

Read "Why Johnny Can't Read" by Rudolph Flesch. I don't want to get into an argument as to why whole language is of the devil, but I will if I have to.

 

[NYDrew]

Tracking is a big reason we moved...it's a big thing in the Arlington school district and my 2 oldest boys are in honors classes in all of their subjects. In addition, they go to school an hour early 2 days a week for enrichment classes which are sort of like electives.

It is not viewed as discrimination because it is available to all students...they just have to be smart enough or work hard enough to be enrolled. Totally determined by the teachers too.

And if any group ever tries to eliminate this because it's "discrimination" (it should be more correctly called recognition of outstanding work), I'll enroll my boys in private schools or we will move again.

When I was in a gifted program being shut down, our (the gifted kids) parents took a very intellegent tactic. Instead of trying to save the gifted program...they threatened to sue that the special ed program needed to be eliminated too for the same reasons. The tactic worked, the district realized they could not legally eliminate the special ed program, but also realized that eliminating the gifted program and keeping special ed was discriminatory and hence illegal(especially since there was more gifted students then special ed).

You should have seen the look of the parent who started the whole mess....I should mention that her kid was learning disabled. She had a lot of apologies to dish out afterwards, and no one accepted them because she was nothing more then a selfish female dog who was trying to secure more funds for her kids programs.

Now I mentor in a school which fully intergrates all levels of learning. Now, if any of you have a disabled child...you might be offended, honestly I don't care because if this is going on in your district, then you should not allow what I'm about to say to go on. I don't think it is fair that a student trying to work hard should be distracted by a braille machine going off, or have to hear a text reader read, or listen to an aid and special student talk, or even be forced to partner up with that kid who is so special that everyone around them can't stand them in a group. Its called survival of the fittest for a reason, now I got no problem helping those who wouldn't normally thrive, but it should not be at the cost of others. This new treatment of students is causing a dumbing of america.

WE DID NOT PUT A MAN ON THE MOON BY TEACHING SMART KIDS TO SIT NEXT TO DUMB KIDS AND LIKE IT. because that is all we are teaching now.


There I said it.

 

[John84]

When I was in a gifted program being shut down, our (the gifted kids) parents took a very intellegent tactic. Instead of trying to save the gifted program...they threatened to sue that the special ed program needed to be eliminated too for the same reasons. The tactic worked, the district realized they could not legally eliminate the special ed program, but also realized that eliminating the gifted program and keeping special ed was discriminatory and hence illegal(especially since there was more gifted students then special ed).

You should have seen the look of the parent who started the whole mess....I should mention that her kid was learning disabled. She had a lot of apologies to dish out afterwards, and no one accepted them because she was nothing more then a selfish female dog who was trying to secure more funds for her kids programs.

Now I mentor in a school which fully intergrates all levels of learning. Now, if any of you have a disabled child...you might be offended, honestly I don't care because if this is going on in your district, then you should not allow what I'm about to say to go on. I don't think it is fair that a student trying to work hard should be distracted by a braille machine going off, or have to hear a text reader read, or listen to an aid and special student talk, or even be forced to partner up with that kid who is so special that everyone around them can't stand them in a group. Its called survival of the fittest for a reason, now I got no problem helping those who wouldn't normally thrive, but it should not be at the cost of others. This new treatment of students is causing a dumbing of america.

WE DID NOT PUT A MAN ON THE MOON BY TEACHING SMART KIDS TO SIT NEXT TO DUMB KIDS AND LIKE IT. because that is all we are teaching now.


There I said it.

If my smiley faces worked, I'd put the clapping one right here ____

 

[ctenidae]

Here, here, NYDrew!
My mom's a gifted-ed teacher, adn she basically pulled teh same thing- got the gifted program listed as "special ed", so now she has nine kinds of leeway to teach what needs to be taught to AP and advanced kids. Good stuff.

 

[jack97]

WE DID NOT PUT A MAN ON THE MOON BY TEACHING SMART KIDS TO SIT NEXT TO DUMB KIDS AND LIKE IT. because that is all we are teaching now.


There I said it.

Now that you said, good for you.

If people want to dig in more, they should look into how much money their school district is spending on the special needs students. Generally, the transportation and teaching cost is higher per students than non special needs. Past towns meetings I have attended, the reason for an increase in the school budget is to get more special needs teacher to shadow the students. With limited budgets, schools are force to throw out or absorb a gifted program into the special need program (as others have mentioned). IMO, the special needs progam has done more damage than any thing else.

The next thing to watch for is mandatory extended day and a longer school calendar year. Some Mass state legs and our governor elect has been proposing this. Its not school reform but doing what they have doing (dumbing the kids) with with more hours and extra days. My concern is that this will take away the extra time we already have to either tutor or put my daughter in an outside program. I think lots of affluent districts already do this, augment their children education with outside programs, it gives the school district a false conclusion that they are doing well but in fact they have parents who have found ways to overcome the school district. Once the extra hours and days become mandatory, this option is taken away from the parents.

OK... end of rant.

 

[jack97]

Rant addendum

IMO, the special needs progam has done more damage than any thing else.

Our school budgets for 06 had several proposals, one increase and two status quo budgets. The former maintains all staff levels and later assumes letting go 10 to 15 teachers and admin to make budget. In all cases, the special needs expenditure remained the same with slight increases from the previous year. This means education for middle to brightest kids is sacrifice to mainstream the special need. Usually, the bottom half of the kids can claim attention deficit disorder (ADD) and get some special needs help.

Talk about a messed up system, this is the generation that should keep our country economically strong when we get old.

 

[smitty77]

I think you may have your terms switched. Whole Language has been repeatedly proven to benefit about 20% of students. The rest get left terminally behind. Phonics, on the other hand, works for 80% of students, and stays with them forever. Guess which way reading has been taught in the US for the past 30 years.

Read "Why Johnny Can't Read" by Rudolph Flesch. I don't want to get into an argument as to why whole language is of the devil, but I will if I have to.

I think what he was referring to was the fact that his daughter's reading and writing ability were severely hindered by this Whole Language approach introduced my the new first grade teacher. When my wife got her degree back in the mid 90's, the current method of teaching reading was Whole Language and Creative Spelling ("Johnny, how do you think that word is spelled?) The result has been a buttload of kids that can't read or write. Why do you think "Hooked on Phonics" is so successful these days? That business venture would have flopped 20 years ago when schools actually taught phonics themselves. Now that they don't, some corporation can make big bucks on your child's learning difficulties.

What's with all of the special needs programs these days? Are there that many kids with "special needs", or just a bunch of kids that would benefit from some creative motivation and small amounts of specialized tutoring. Is the fact that we're fumbling the ball with teaching methods like "Whole Language" the reason we have some many kids with "Learning disabilities"? I'm not making light of kids with real problems, as some genuinely need all of the help they can get. But it seems the more money we pump into special needs programs, the more special needs students we're treating/creating.

I shudder to think what would have become of me if I were going to school now. I probably would have been assigned my own special needs staff:
- 25 years ago my kindergarden teacher wanted to hold me back because I couldn't use scissors. She neglected to notice I was a lefty using righty scissors.
- My first grade reading teacher thought I was a slow learner until she realized I knew all the answers but was too shy to raise my hand. My parents worked with me after school for a few months to get me back up to speed with the higher level kids.
- My fourth grade teacher noticed me really disinterested in math early in the school year. I told her I knew most of what she was teaching and was just bored. I was moved up to a higher level.

How many students have the ablitly but are wrongly labeled "special needs"? I see students these days being classified as "haves" and "haves nots". You're either a genius, or you have a learning disability. Things need to change from top to bottom in our schools before anything gets better.

 

[jack97]

I'm not making light of kids with real problems, as some genuinely need all of the help they can get. But it seems the more money we pump into special needs programs, the more special needs students we're treating/creating.

As a society, we have to decide where best to put our resources. Below is a graph of the amount of money spent on student and special needs student in Mass. I've seen charts of nearby towns where the cost per special needs student is triple or quadruple compare to non special needs.