Mass transit plan

[Geoff]

I have taken those bus trips to Killington and Mt.Snow and they are the best value. I also recently discovered a ski club in my area that charters buses for weekend trips further north, even to Maine. This will probably be the most cost effective way to go now and in the future. It costs me almost $100.00 in gas just to get to the Catskills and back now, insane!!!! It's one reason why I love Utah so much, they have the best bus system, no car needed.

Yep. Trains sound wonderful but the reality is that charter bus service is the thing that is easy to implement and gets people from the 'burbs where they live nonstop to the ski resorts. If gas really does break the $5.00/gallon barrier, it starts making sense. The resorts will need to combine long haul bus service with reliable local loops to navigate between lodging, the ski area, and the various drinking, dining, and shopping establishments. Killington is big enough that they have a set of bus loops that run fairly frequently. It's still nothing like what you see at a Steamboat, Aspen, or Park City where a car ends up being completely unnecessary and there isn't any parking even if you had a car. I use the bus at Killington when I'm doing a bar crawl. It's a little inconvenient but it sure beats spending the night in jail.

 

[ckofer]

The busses are clearly the next logical step. Trains would be great if they could travel much faster than cars. Ski resorts would be well served to sponsor the busses and make a bus/ski/lunch package.

I do my best thinking on the bus.

 

[GrilledSteezeSandwich]

The busses are clearly the next logical step. Trains would be great if they could travel much faster than cars. Ski resorts would be well served to sponsor the busses and make a bus/ski/lunch package.

I do my best thinking on the bus.

As long as there's not a sketchy toe-sucker like in the movie road trip..lol..I won't be using a bus to the ski area..I like to drive..even if gas is 10 bucks a gallon..

 

[kingslug]

As long as there's not a sketchy toe-sucker like in the movie road trip..lol..I won't be using a bus to the ski area..I like to drive..even if gas is 10 bucks a gallon..

When you get a heli....let me know...but I doubt I could chip in for the gas.
10 bucks a gallon...I'd be riding a horse!!!

 

[ts01]

2 rumors to drop:

1 - I have read news stories on and off about a ski train up to Gore or nearby, from NYC. That could work and should be more politically palatable than other ski trains since it's to a state-owned resort.

2 - In Quebec, they are planning a train from Quebec City up the St Lawrence River connecting first to Mt Ste Anne (Beauprey (sp)? about 40 miles and then to Le Massif about 60 miles. Details (sketchy) on Le Massif web site. From a great city with plenty of nightlife, restaurants, shopping, culture, a reasonably short ride up a beautiful riverway to two of the best mountains in the east. Croissant and coffe in the a.m.; a glass of wine as you return. Stay tuned on this one, it will be the holy grail of ski trains.

Oh and I think there's a train from Denver to Winter Park but that's a little far from the east coast.

 

[bigbob]

I don't think that the tracks are still in place north of Ossipee Sand & Gravel to North Conway for the Dover to Conway run.

 

[ckofer]

The most likely thing to happen is carpooling.

 

[MadPadraic]

Again, how much is too much to pay for gas before the average driver gets out of his SUV in Worcester, for example, and gets on a commuter train to Boston? Does that person make an ungodly amount of $$$ that the price is not an option, unless getting interviewed by the news? Sad to say, that is the same person who is driving up to VT and staying at base area lodging and wouldn't even think twice about paying $5-$6/gal gas.

I don't think its a function of gas as much as a function of parking and schedules. The MBTA's worcester/framingham line does NOT suffer from a lack of ridership. In fact, every seat is full on just about every rush hour train (and typically by people who would be able to shrug off $6 gas).

A ski train or nicer ski bus (think Limo Liner, but a lot bigger) out of Boston would instantly decide my season pass choice.

 

[dropKickMurphy]

Unfortunately for trains, the vast majority of track is owned by freight operators. Amtrak gets side-lined a lot. Laying new track for high speed people movers would be great, but very expensive and very exposed to NIMBY-ism. The problem becomes less a lack of support than a surplus of opposition.

The NIMBY-ism is a huge factor.

In MA, it seems like everone is in favor of expanding commuter rail service. However, any concrete plans invariably result in a breakout of NIMBY-ism all along the proposed route. The Greenbush line was delayed for years, and the cost skyrocketed, due to the opposition of people in the wealthy towns the line would be passing through. They actually ended up having to build an expensive tunnel under Hingham to satisfy the locals. Meanwhile, the efforts to bring commuter rail to New Bedford and Fall River have been stalled for years by local opposition to running the lines through their towns.

Hell, in our area I've seen the NIMBYs defeat things like dog parks, skateboard parks, and bike trails! We're even seeing NIMBYism creeping into ski resorts; such as the opposition by some condo owners to night skiing at SR.

 

[tjf67]

Lake Placid

You can take a bus from just about anywhere to LP. From there we( local taxpayers) provide two shuttles. One from the town to the mountain and one that takes people around town. I never notice people getting off the bus with skiis. I do notice people using the shuttles around town and to the hill but never at more than half full.

Put some stippers on the bus and they will fill up. Heck a little hooking to save the environment is well worth the trade off IMO anyways. It a sausage fest at mountains anyways so give the guys what they like. Beer, skantly clad women, skiing. What esle could you ask for.

 

[hardline]

You can take a bus from just about anywhere to LP. From there we( local taxpayers) provide two shuttles. One from the town to the mountain and one that takes people around town. I never notice people getting off the bus with skiis. I do notice people using the shuttles around town and to the hill but never at more than half full.

Put some stippers on the bus and they will fill up. Heck a little hooking to save the environment is well worth the trade off IMO anyways. It a sausage fest at mountains anyways so give the guys what they like. Beer, skantly clad women, skiing. What esle could you ask for.

sort of like what vernon valley used to do. all the lifties where girls and you had the playboy club just down the street. but i don't think its going to happen again anythime to soon.

 

[GrilledSteezeSandwich]

You can take a bus from just about anywhere to LP. From there we( local taxpayers) provide two shuttles. One from the town to the mountain and one that takes people around town. I never notice people getting off the bus with skiis. I do notice people using the shuttles around town and to the hill but never at more than half full.

Put some stippers on the bus and they will fill up. Heck a little hooking to save the environment is well worth the trade off IMO anyways. It a sausage fest at mountains anyways so give the guys what they like. Beer, skantly clad women, skiing. What esle could you ask for.

MMMM..I love a good sausage fest..the local German restaurants puts on a great sausage fest every October fest..mmm lots of thick and meaty sausage..yummy,.,

 

[riverc0il]

I don't think its a function of gas as much as a function of parking and schedules. The MBTA's worcester/framingham line does NOT suffer from a lack of ridership. In fact, every seat is full on just about every rush hour train (and typically by people who would be able to shrug off $6 gas).

I am over three years removed from being a Mass resident, but wasn't the MBTA losing money or at least struggling financially? Every rush hour train may be full but I used to be a weekend rider and many trains would run with only one or two cars being used and people having entire rows to themselves. Unless they could pack a ski train full every run, I just don't see it happening. Considering the sacrifice of convenience and longer time getting to and from the mountains (and the price of a train making day tripping not a viable option), gas prices would have to nearly double before the average day tripper would consider it a worth while option.

 

[ckofer]

I guess that depends what constitutes the average day tripper. If you only ski 5 times a year, then it doesn't really matter financially. The concept of all-inclusive bus trips to specific mountains may have appeal (bus/lift pass/lunch). Carpooling will make more sense. Increased fuel prices have more than one way of eating away at discretionary funds.

 

[riverc0il]

Don't forget that "cost" is not just financial. I estimate a day tripper who wants to ski in the Lincoln or North Conway areas from Boston Metro would need to leave home at least two hours earlier and get home two hours later to account for driving to/from the train station, waiting for the train, the train making stops, the training going slower than an automobile on the highway, and getting to/from the mountain (small bus, I would assume) which includes waiting for the bus, loading the bus with other skiers, and travel time. Two hours additional my be a low estimate. Suffice to say that day trippers would not be able to ski open to close using ski trains so the other "cost" would also be less time on the hill in addition to travel logistics. I am a logistics person and I like efficiency and timeliness so everything about ski trains just screams "will not work en mass". The logistics involved are just so amazingly cumbersome and the costs are more than just financial, but would certainly at least double travel costs even with the high price per gallon (depending on number of people versus car pool options). Car pool and buses win, IMO. They eliminate all the "costs" of trains while increasing efficiency and decreasing, instead of increasing, travel costs. Trains have the environmental benefits. But c'mon, this is skiing and boarding we are talking about. Not exactly an eco-friendly sport by any means.

 

[tjf67]

MMMM..I love a good sausage fest.. lots of thick and meaty sausage..yummy,.,

Yeah somehow that does not surprise me.

 

[ckofer]

<snip> But c'mon, this is skiing and boarding we are talking about. Not exactly an eco-friendly sport by any means.

That doesn't mean that we can't think of energy-efficient ways of enjoying the sport.

 

[riverc0il]

That doesn't mean that we can't think of energy-efficient ways of enjoying the sport.

I agree and did not mean we should not look but I still believe higher MPG vehicles, car pooling in said vehicles, and buses are better options for most skiers.

 

[MadPadraic]

I am over three years removed from being a Mass resident, but wasn't the MBTA losing money or at least struggling financially? Every rush hour train may be full but I used to be a weekend rider and many trains would run with only one or two cars being used and people having entire rows to themselves.

I believe that the MBTA operates at a substantial loss. That being said, the purpose of urban and commuter public transit is not to be a cash cow for the government (otherwise, we'd see a very different pricing structure). Suffice it to say that it is necessary to run off peak trains (at a loss) to keep the overall utility level reasonable enough to make the train a viable alternative to driving.

Don't forget that "cost" is not just financial. I estimate a day tripper who wants to ski in the Lincoln or North Conway areas from Boston Metro would need to leave home at least two hours earlier and get home two hours later to account for driving to/from the train station, waiting for the train, the train making stops, the training going slower than an automobile on the highway, and getting to/from the mountain (small bus, I would assume) which includes waiting for the bus, loading the bus with other skiers, and travel time. Two hours additional my be a low estimate. Suffice to say that day trippers would not be able to ski open to close using ski trains so the other "cost" would also be less time on the hill in addition to travel logistics. I am a logistics person and I like efficiency and timeliness so everything about ski trains just screams "will not work en mass". The logistics involved are just so amazingly cumbersome and the costs are more than just financial, but would certainly at least double travel costs even with the high price per gallon (depending on number of people versus car pool options). Car pool and buses win, IMO. They eliminate all the "costs" of trains while increasing efficiency and decreasing, instead of increasing, travel costs. Trains have the environmental benefits. But c'mon, this is skiing and boarding we are talking about. Not exactly an eco-friendly sport by any means.

Ok. So Loon is, say, about 2:30 from Boston. You are saying that it would take 4:30 door to door on a train, but less on a bus?

It seems like your setting up straw men. All the "costs" of a train are present on a bus: driving to a station (even if the station is a box store's parking lot), waiting for other passengers (slower on a bus in my experience: there is only one exit in the front and the isle is narrower), waiting for the bus, etc.

I don't see why a ski train to Lincoln would make stops along the way--I'd envision a nroth station departure and one stop in a northern burb to pick up passengers--or the need for a shuttle bus; why would you put the Lincoln station anywhere OTHER than at Loon base (maybe a second stop in North Woodstock).

Even if you did add a stop in Manchester or such, the time needed is really minimal.

As for North Conway, just avoiding that evil traffic would make a transfer entirely worthwhile. I also reject the notion that trains would be slower. Amtrak (regular service, not Acela) is faster from Boston to Providence than a bus, and faster from Providence to Penn station than a bus from Kennedy Plaza to Port Authority. This holds for virtually all hours of the day and night.

All this being said, I agree that buses are much more feasible (because of a lower level of demand) even if they are a much less pleasant experience.

 

[Moe Ghoul]

I agree and did not mean we should not look but I still believe higher MPG vehicles, car pooling in said vehicles, and buses are better options for most skiers.

I think that's the answer as well. This country gets a failing grade for Mass transit. Our whole societal movement into the suburbs evolved around cheap gas. Were starting to pay the price for that. Folks will take more bus trips, carpool and ski clubs should see new membership rise as more folks opt for trip discounts and bustrips.