Mtn Creek Officially Announces South/Bear Parkification

[Rob A]

Well, you seem to be forgetting that I'm 15....

My point is that, outside of the parks, there are/were tons of people on the trails as well, and a much higher percentage of them are skiers. Most skiers don't like skiing Vernon at all because the "gondi" is a huge hassle for skiers. They already had the park rat crowd locked up in the NYC area, I don't think having more parks is going to draw that many people, but I do think it's going to make a lot of their former non-park skiing/riding crowd leave.

More importantly, the parks were not very crowded at all last year, so I don't understand why they are expanding the terrain devoted to parks without the demand being there for it.

I agree with you completely, I think the same way, and I'm a skier and 16 yrs old.

The gondola sucks, vernon's parking sucks, the lodge sucks. All this makes South/Bear very desirable. And you are right to say that the Great Northern park wasn't so crowded last yr. I didn't mind that arrangement as much as it was just 4-5 trails, but now giving them 2 peaks (especially the one's with better lifts, parking, lodge) is terrible. MC is going to lose alot of skiers, and the worst part is, there are just no alternatives for people that have MC as their home mountain. Hidden Valley is hardly worth it.

 

[JimG.]

I agree with you completely, I think the same way, and I'm a skier and 16 yrs old.

The gondola sucks, vernon's parking sucks, the lodge sucks. All this makes South/Bear very desirable. And you are right to say that the Great Northern park wasn't so crowded last yr. I didn't mind that arrangement as much as it was just 4-5 trails, but now giving them 2 peaks (especially the one's with better lifts, parking, lodge) is terrible. MC is going to lose alot of skiers, and the worst part is, there are just no alternatives for people that have MC as their home mountain. Hidden Valley is hardly worth it.

The reason they are taking the chance on losing skiers is exactly because of the lack of options.

Look, they're gambling and pushing the envelope a bit...that's a good thing for a business to do but it sucks for the skiers in this case.

Take some heart...I assure you if they lose enough business they will re-evaluate the situation. That's why I originally told Rob A to vote with his dollars. Which I understand is tough because you guys are younger and can't just hop in your car and burn $50 in gas going to and from a hill further away.

Maybe we ought to come up with an AZ ride program to help these guys out.

 

[drewfidelic]

Maybe it's because I've never skied Vernon Valley/Great Gorge (as I still think of it), but I think that this is a very clever idea by Intrawest to make the most of a small hill that brings in lots of people. Instead of yo-yoing up and down a <1000' vertical, riders are encouraged to spend more time on the hill between runs with the various park features.

Besides proximity to NYC and North Jersey, there's little to recommend about Mountain Creek. But if they have the Northeast's largest terrain park? Well, there's a hook. And I (like Intrawest) would bet that there are more park enthusiasts willing to try the area because of the expanded park than there are regular skiers who will go elsewhere to get their free skiing on. And by converting the entire section of the resort over to the park-- that gets press coverage and probably a great impression in the boarding community. And some riders who will try the area who wouldn't otherwise.
________
Vapor Brothers

 

[Rob A]

The reason they are taking the chance on losing skiers is exactly because of the lack of options.

Look, they're gambling and pushing the envelope a bit...that's a good thing for a business to do but it sucks for the skiers in this case.

Take some heart...I assure you if they lose enough business they will re-evaluate the situation. That's why I originally told Rob A to vote with his dollars. Which I understand is tough because you guys are younger and can't just hop in your car and burn $50 in gas going to and from a hill further away.

Maybe we ought to come up with an AZ ride program to help these guys out.

Yeah it's rough for us. I make my trips to Belleayre and others as often as I can, but it is tough. And I night ski about twice a wk, and MC is the only option there. I will be driving this yr (17 in november), but gas money is real tough as you said and it looks like I will have to go for the MC season pass again. As I don't want to do my night skiing at Hidden Valley.

 

[GrilledSteezeSandwich]

That's good news because the progression of mid-Atlantic skiing is going more toward park..At Blue mountain they have a 1,000 vertical foot terrain park, halfpipe..and a smaller park. Mountain Creek is becoming known as a Jib-friendly mountain. Unfortunately they have crappy snowmaking and have temperatures that average a few degrees more than the Poconos due to the proximity to NYC and the Ocean..

 

[Rob A]

Another response from the creek today, wow this one is a long one.

hey,
sorry it took so long to get back to you, but we really took your comments to heart and wanted to address everything you wrote about.

You have hit on exactly some, if not all, the very questions and concerns that we posed to ourselves when we began surveying how to best manage our growth through this initiative nearly 2 years ago. These changes have been made only after very careful, unprejudiced, quantifiable measure of our customers demographics, habits, critical pinch points, and quite frankly, our need to address some key issues have the largest impact on the greatest number of guests.

To your points, we are both blessed, and challenged as a mountain resort in a most unlikely location. Blessed, because at less than 50 miles from New York City, we're easy-to-get-to for a snow fix. Challenged because the mid-Atlantic weather is never reliable. This has been true since Jack Kurlander and Otto Schneibs launched Great Gorge in 1965. In the summer of Intrawest's acquisition, one of the largest one-time installations of modern snowmaking was completed for opening day...and we've continued to invest more than $1million every year since to build the kind of firepower necessary to not only open 175 acres of ragged, rocky, snow-eating topography; but also to nurse these slopes through in inevitable thaw-freeze cycles that blow up the valley from the same New York City and New Jersey harbors that fuel our customer base.

There's no question that our trail opening priorities closely follow the pattern of the guests that first arrive en masse...the racers, the 'parkies', and the seasonal beginners that flock like swallows to Capistrano on December 26th. Historically this has meant Bear Peak and getting an initial park up for maximum play in minimal space, while we establish a top-to-bottom beginner route on Horizon. Only then can we go back to serially open additional trails based on providing for the largest segments of our business first. You'll see some shifts this season. For one, Vernon will open first with focus on 'the Backside' intermediate terrain; with South scheduled to follow a week later.

A lot has changed in skiing in the 42 years since Great Gorge first opened, much of it in the last decade. The sunny, infectious Warren Miller movies of that era serve as a quaint reminder of the pace, and yes the crowds, that graced the time. Check out Warren's latest films for a startling juxtaposition. Advances in equipment, in lift service, in snowmaking and grooming, and in participant speed and performance have all dramatically influenced our present-day expectations. Whether it's a 16-year-old boy on a snowboard, or a 56-year-old skier...we're all benefiting from the R&D inherent in the spirit of invention largely jump-started by the snowboarding industry. Easier-turning skis, faster skis, safer bindings, and comfortable boots if you can imagine that! The snow...well, that still relies on cold weather even with the latest machinery. (Incidentally, a 1970’s era Season Pass at Great Gorge at $200 when adjusted for inflation would cost more than $800 today!).


We are realistic about the challenge and limitations we all face in this region as 'snow farmers', and those of the mountains south of the Catskills. Our ethos is to make the very most of what we have, and to remain focused above all on Fun. For big, long ripping ski runs...we commit to the drive north or hop a flight west.

Many of us have had the pleasure of working in resorts all over the country, large and small. Regardless of our points of origin, one thing that runs true and deep throughout is a fervent pride in New Jersey. We know...Jersey takes a bad rap sometimes. It's constantly in the shadow of The City. It's likely this position that drives the Jersey pride...to paraphrase AVIS, 'We’re Number 2 and We Try Harder'. We work hard, we play hard, we ski hard, we live hard, and we're damn proud of it. You can't help but notice that we've appropriated this pride in our own marketing; it's not just about skiing and snowboarding, it's about skiing and snowboarding jersey-style, bringing a great lifetime sport to as many people as possible, against the odds.

Innovate. Educate. Celebrate. It's our mantra. Much like the World's Greatest City just to our south, not every block is pretty on the outside, but there are scores of hidden treasure troves behind those unassuming doors.

While the incidence of kids ripping it up on skis again is growing across the country, it's only natural that on the confines of smaller suburban hills snowboards may offer more accessible ways to play...and they take to it likes ducks to water. One element is certainly that the learning curve to reach the ‘fun’ part can be significantly shorter than on skis.

You can see the recipe of ingredients that makes Mountain Creek what it is today. It's almost impossible to isolate a single factor and credit it with driving change, but it is more about the NATURAL existing conditions of geography, geology and demographics than anything else that defines our position and the direction of our business.

Easily accessible location, proximity to a large, suburban, family market, plus a fixed size (the mountain ain't getting any taller!) means that as the sport evolves, we need to adapt.

Re-locating and expanding our Terrain Parks at South is simply an acknowledgement that we’ve outgrown the resources and assets at Vernon and need to repair the cross-traffic conflicts inherent in placing high-skilled high-speed guests on top of beginners, groups and leisure guests.

All this serves as foundation for your specific issues.


There are 3 primary customer complaints at Mountain Creek: The Cabriolet, The Lodge, and Parking. Two of the three are conditions of ‘if we knew then what we know now’ we’d probably make much different multi-million dollar decisions.

Not many people will remember this, but in the initial summer of Mountain Creek under Intrawest, the first $half-billion development plan called for something of an 'upside down' mountain, with a collection of 'mini-lodges' clustered around the mountain-top lakes and a planned 27-hole golf course connected by a trail network. Our mandate was to remove 11 old chairlifts, to clean up the mountain and to replace the uphill capacity with fewer than half the number of lifts. The wisdom of the day was 6-packs (detachable 6-seaters) and there was even talk about an 8-pack!

Faced with some extenuating circumstances: at the time there was an Alpine Slide that demanded summer traffic; a mountain bike program accessing the mountain-top trails, foliage and hiking traffic; a vision of foot traffic to and from the base village and the mountain-top lodging; and in the winter, a high proportion of beginner and lower-intermediate skiers and riders. We've all seen the cluster than can occur trying to get even 4 people on a chair, but 6? Never! We needed a reliable, efficient means of moving people the 4 minutes to the top. Following the success of the Cabriolet at Tremblant which moves people from the lower village and parking lots to the base of the mountain, it was at the time a revolutionary answer.

In retrospect, was it the right one? For a portion of our guests, you bet. For another segment, not at all (I hear ya, my legs get tired too). But for the moment, it is what it is. My own remedy in light of the short ride up and the short run down is the art of frequent 'social breaks', and I'm chagrined to say, I try to remind myself that a round-trip at Mountain Creek is poor stamina training for any kind of run 'out west'. I don't know that we can offer any new information, other than we are well-aware that the Cab isn't universally loved by everyone, and that Triple isn't the right answer. It’s a frequent topic around our planning table, but honestly not a top priority for cash (we’d prefer a lodge and even more snowmaking).

“If we knew then what we knew now......”

Which is a good segue to the Mountain Express 'fabric membrane tension structure' otherwise affectionally known as ‘the bubbles’. Recall that on Columbus Day Weekend 2000 we had a devastating fire that wiped out the old lodge in an hour. Faced with the prospect of not operating that season, we worked round-the-clock to create temporary facilities and to meet our opening date with the intention of re-building a new lodge beginning that March. It serviced the needs and size of our attendance fine that season, and lent an air of a 'festival' where the old clattertrap lodge once stood.

As everyone knows by now, in the interim the Village development plan shifted and the new lodge was incorporated into that schedule, anticipated to move quickly. Quick enough to stretch another season out of the still serviceable tents (remember there was so much room that the Mountain Express actually housed a climbing wall, AND Guest Services?!).

In what has become a now-familiar tale, delay after delay plagued the Village launch and we find ourselves looking back in 20/20 hindsight at the original plan.

Operating inside of the Mountain Express facility is no more treat for us than it is for our guests. It can be pungent and odiferous at it’s worst, and at peak demand, undersized. We are applying some fixes....free bag check to keep clutter away from the tables; free ski and board check to keep the clutter of equipment from around the doors; expanded and improved outdoor seating to relieve pressure during pleasant weather; we anticipate Noah's Restaurant in The Applachian to take some load off The Mountain Express, and The Hex may be better leveraged during peak lunch demand for more efficient food service.

One of the drivers for our Terrain Park swap with South is to drive a greater proportion of traffic to South during these peak periods, relieving pressure at Vernon both on the trails and in the facilities. Our research shows that the percentage of participation that is likely to move on weekends warrants this.

In the meantime, we continue to work on design plans for a new base services facility that properly supports our business level in the winter AND that can be built for the right price to sit empty the other 2/3rds of the year.

Finally in the Big 3....Parking. We're not sure what to say. Before The Appalachian there was some parking directly slopeside. Frankly, prior to arriving in Vernon, NJ most of us had never seen anything like it, but hey, we'll take it! Aside from the first early arrivals however, parking at Vernon hasn't changed much since it's inception, and shy of a tectonic plate shift, we're not sure what would possibly eliminate the grade from the lower lots to the base and certainly not sure how we could make it 'more like South'. Not to be smug, but it kind of is what it is.

One thing for sure that's changed with the modern advent of ski resort development....parking keeps getting pushed farther and farther away nearly everywhere you go (unless you're lodging overnight and parking warm and dry below your hotel). It's not uncommon to have a substantial walk...through a lot or through a village, and well, we ARE recreational athletes, so a few hundred yards shouldn't kill us. Maybe we should recall some of those old Warren Miller films again....if memory serves, walking from the car through gravel and mud, frozen or soup-like, with a shoulder full of gear was always part of the deal. There’s a nasty hill for some, and Drop Off is available for everyone. We could probably improve the Drop Off zone quite a bit to encourage more use.

You're probably aware that we've experimented with shuttle busses, similar to those used at resorts with true outbound lots. What we found was that some busses were worse than none at all.... and only served to piss off people waiting patiently for the full cycle of pick-up, drop-off, north-south links and return for pick-up (there's that nasty 2nd base area thing again messing up the works). In the meantime, we continue to work on improved Drop-Off scenarios and traffic patterns; and entertain all manner of mass transit solutions.


Well, there you have it. It's no easy piece of business to begin with in any environment, and as much as we hate to disappoint any customer, we’ve had to accept that we can’t please all the people all the time and the needs of business tend to put the focus on the greatest majority. The many moving pieces of the Mountain Creek topography, geography, meteorology and a host of other 'ologies' only make it more challenging for even those who like a good challenge. Solutions that at first appear simple are, like most businesses, more actually much more complex; and have flummoxed some of the best that have spent their time here.

Conflict drives change and the world demands change, or one stands to perish.

What is certain is that Mountain Creek is due for a change. The pre-existing conflicts inherent in the mountain traffic, in the customer segments of growth, in facility utilization demand solutions now.

We believe ‘an all-mountain attitude adjustment’ is necessary, with the re-utilization of South and a more focused development and operation of a traditional suburban mountain at Vernon and Granite Peaks all with a renewed sense of vigor and fun.

Our goals are ambitious, and we know that we face the resistance of detractors. We're committed across the board, and are confident that within the season, we will demonstrate a better experience for the bulk of our guests.

With Respect,

The Mountain Creek Team

So basically they are saying that "it is what it is" and they have to adapt to the way things have changed. I'm glad they took the time to type all that out, but it doesn't really help anything. The lodge will still stink, the parking will still be horrible, and the cabriolet gondola will still be a disgrace. But I guess we will just have to trust them. It appears that MC really wants to separate the parkies from the rest of the skiers/riders at MC. If they are truly successful, maybe this won't be as bad as I think it will be. I'm still very upset that South/Bear are pretty much gone, but if Vernon and Granite truly become much less crowded with boarders, and they make an effort to get the good trails open early (which it sounds like they are) maybe it won't be so bad afterall.

 

[JimG.]

That's quite a comprehensive answer...it's obvious they care about your concerns.

Not that they will alter their plan to suit you. But it should make you feel a little better that they care enough to write that.

I always tell people who are facing changes they don't think they will like to give it a year. Do so.

 

[bensonr2]

Well I have my solution to the problem.... I'll be continuing to ski with my non twin tipped skis at south. I dont care. I paid for a season pass and I'll be skiing on my favorite terrain.

 

[adamti91]

Never been there, but since their vertical is so low, no one is going to go to Mountain Creek for their trails like say, people to to Sugarbush for their's. However, they made a good choice appealing to the one part of snowsports that doesn't need a big vertical, freestyle.

 

[NJSkiBabe]

Nothing is going to change the fact that there is still NO lodge at the Vernon base. Without a decent lodge not a lot of people are going to go there. The "temporary bubbles" were supposed to be just that - temporary. I don't care what management says. The traditional skier and snowboarder is NOT happy with the changes. If the Triple lift at the Vernon base is NOT running - then that leaves only 1 lift to get to the top of the mountain and that is the Cabriolet.

FREE ski check and FREE bag check doesn't mean much when there is NO clean or WARM place to rest.

$20 for preferred parking at the Vernon base is also insane.

Snowboarders may be their preceived customer base but like everyone said - the terrain parks were practically empty last year. Even the small one that was on the South side.

The village idea may work in other locations throughout the country but it is not going to work in New Jersey. Mountain Creek will never be a ski resort like Vail or Park City. The village idea didn't work when Vernon Valley tried it and all those buildings have been sitting empty for many, many years. How about doing something with those buildings first before building even more buildings that are also going to stand empty.

I think the new retail space at the Appalachian will also sit empty because of not enough business traffic and the fact that any business that they get is going to be seasonal. The village is a nice idea, but New Jersey is not the place to do it. There are way too many day trippers that come to the resort.

I'm also not sure how many people are going to spend $200 to $300 a night to stay in a hotel at Mountain Creek.

Hidden Valley IS going to be open this winter and has NEW management. They have already started making improvements to the slopes.

 

[millerm277]

.....Hidden Valley IS going to be open this winter and has NEW management. They have already started making improvements to the slopes.

I'll be there instead of at MC for the reasons you said, and then some...

 

[BeanoNYC]

South and Bear were the only redeeming thing about Mountain Creek. It was a place you can go to get away from all the B.S. ....now it's bunk.

 

[millerm277]

South and Bear were the only redeeming thing about Mountain Creek. It was a place you can go to get away from all the B.S. ....now it's bunk.

Granite/GG North was nice as well, but with pretty much two trails and one shared with Vernon, it isn't enough.

 

[Dr Skimeister]

The only time I'd even think of wasting the 15 minutes to go to either Creek or Hidden Valley is on a week day after an appreciable snow fall. And even then I'd only do a half day because in just those couple of hours it is possible to have skied every trail and by noon all the kids from suburbia that got the day off from school would have arrived and have turned either place into zoo-central.

Just my .02.

 

[Rob A]

Well the season is getting closer, and it appears it snowed somewhat in MC today.

Needless to say I bought my season pass a couple days ago, had to shell out $299. I used to pay $179. Another retarded move by the creek, give away half the resort, then jack up the prices!

I have to say as much as I love skiing, I'm not looking forward to skiing at MC this yr. I bought the pass because sadly, I don't have many other options. Hidden Valley just isn't going to do it for me. Hopefully Vernon and Granite are alot less crowded this yr, with all the expert terrain open early and often. And dear lord I hope they don't have Zero G closed for race training all the time.

The prices are up, the triple plays are gone, the resort has made some very questionable and drastic changes that many don't like. I'm starting to think they WANT to lose customers.

 

[millerm277]

I bought the pass because sadly, I don't have many other options. Hidden Valley just isn't going to do it for me.

Sure you do, a bunch of the PA areas are only about an hour from you.

 

[Rob A]

Sure you do, a bunch of the PA areas are only about an hour from you.

Most of which are either too small or don't offer sufficient night skiing.

 

[millerm277]

Most of which are either too small or don't offer sufficient night skiing.

Camelback and Shawnee (both of which are about an hour and 15 minus from you), offer night skiing, and are about the same size as Mtn Creek. They've got a bit less vertical (800ft and 700ft), but are much nicer....

 

[Rob A]

Camelback and Shawnee (both of which are about an hour and 15 minus from you), offer night skiing, and are about the same size as Mtn Creek. They've got a bit less vertical (800ft and 700ft), but are much nicer....

I've skied Shawnee once, and it was nice for a day, but definitely not a place I'd want to ski all season. It takes 30 min longer to get to for me, and it's terrain offers alot to be desired. The only trail that even resembled an expert run was over before it started (Renegade). And camelback offers much of the same.

I'm going to give MC one more year before I make any changes. I want to give them a chance with their new plan. As much as I hate it, you never know, maybe Vernon will be much less crowded and enjoyable now, maybe they will get the expert terrain on Granite open early, who knows.

But one thing I'm not going to do is settle for less. And I like to ski 3 times a week, a weekend morning, and 2 weekend nights. Driving up to shawnee, an extra half hour away, wouldn't work too well for night skiing and the terrain there just isn't worth it.

 

[ski_resort_observer]

Remember Intrawest got bought by a PE firm Fortress about a year ago. They care very little about service just making money. I expect Intrawest's marginal resorts are in for alot of cost cutting.