Nobody stops to help dying man

[kickstand]

Rick Reilly's weekly column in Sports Illustrated this week is about the climbers on Everest. Interesting read. He specifically mentions Hall, Vistuers, Hillary, etc. Check it out if you can.

 

[Sky]

I have so far avoided this thread. If you never read "Into Thin Air"...I highly recommend it. Quite graphic...and horrific. Several deaths on that trip...to include the lead guy who called his wife from the summit (still in good health) knowing he was doomed do to delays in reaching the summit and the pending storm he didn't beat (it's been a while, so maybe I forgot some of the specifics). There was an oriental female who died on that attempt. There was a guy (from Texas?) that they left for dead...who revivied on his own and walked out. Spookey. Excellent book!

A previous comment about "you are dying slowly while you are up there" probably amplifies the Friends on Powder Days perspective. You've got to be quite the committed athlete to attempt Everest in the 1st place. The folks that do it are likely NOT to be of the all-for-one-one-for-all mind set (I'm guessing extreme Type-A). Maybe they are wonderful people at sea level and amongst family and friends...but come "Game Day"...maybe they have thier "Game Face" on...are in the zone (if you will) and seeing a fresh body on the trail after seeing several other "remains"...I'm thinking "desenitization". That's if (at that altitude) you're thinking at all.

So on the face of it...leaving somebody to die seems quite heartless. But on the summit, maybe the victim knew he was doomed (like the lead guide who dies on the summit in the book above).

I don't know, I wasn't there...and I never will be. Read the book and it describes in detail the level of commitment it takes just to get to the final base camp. Amazing.

 

[Angus]

after you've read into thin air - I'd recommend "'The Climb' is Russian mountaineer Anatoli Boukreev's account of the harrowing May 1996 Mount Everest attempt, a tragedy that resulted in the deaths of eight people. The book is also Boukreev's rebuttal to accusations from fellow climber and author Jon Krakauer, who, in his bestselling memoir, Into Thin Air, suggests that Boukreev forfeited the safety of his clients to achieve his own climbing goals." (excerpted off amazon!)

I haven't read this thread except for afew entries - but there appears to be a different code of ethics that exist for these high/extreme mountain climbers.

 

[JimG.]

I've said it before...it all boils down to actually being there to make any kind of commentary about the ethics of leaving people to die. The path to the top of Everest is literally lined with the dead bodies of those who attempted it only to die trying. That should speak volumes to anyone who wants to try to summit Everest: don't expect any help if you get into trouble.

If you feel it is heartless to pass by a dying climber, you're right if you're playing by the rules at sea level. At 29,000 feet, you may be sacrificimg your life if you stop and help and the chances that you will rescue the fallen climber are very slim. So the decision becomes much different in the death zone.

So, to make any comments about who stopped or didn't stop while sitting in a warm room in front of a computer are pointless. You weren't there.

 

[Sky]

So the decision becomes much different in the death zone.

"Death Zone"...I forgot that reference in the book.

 

[JimG.]

"Death Zone"...I forgot that reference in the book.

"Into Thin Air" is a difficult read. Alot of mistakes were made on the Rob Hall run expedition. Hall wound up dying because he stayed and tried to help several doomed clients on the summit. At the time, Hall was considered one of the top 3 climbers in the world, so it was a shock to the climbing world that so many lives were lost. The 1996 expedition started the discussion about the trend of bringing well to do but less than professional climbers to the summit. Must feel nice to pocket $100,000 per climber to lead the expedition...not worth dying for though.

The Asian woman was an experienced climber too and was attempting to become the first woman from her country to summit Everest. Alot of rules were broken in the attempt to get her to the top, and she paid with her life.

The Texas pathologist, Beck Weathers, was left for dead SEVERAL times by more than one team. He somehow managed to survive and walk himself back down to camp 4 in a raging blizzard, avoiding falling off of several cliffs along the way. It was not his time to die.

 

[Sky]

"Into Thin Air" is a difficult read.

WHy do you think so? Was it the subject and description of deaths...or the story (writing)?

I thought the descriptions of the living conditions...and the obvious commitments were compelling reading.

 

[pedxing]

Another take on the Lincoln Hall rescue - in the story is an interesting contrast in character.

Others have spoken well of Daniel Mazur before. He most definitely sounds like a good, as well as highly competent man.

 

[ChileMass]

Lincoln Hall and Dan Mazur were just on the Today show talking to Matt Lauer. Hall has heavy bandages on both hands and one foot, is in a wheelchair and says he expects to lose "a couple of joints" on his hands. But - he still looks terrific and sounds OK. A little shaken up and he got a little emotional talking about the generous help he received at 28,000 feet from Mazur and his team.

Mazur said his team found Hall at daybreak, with no gloves or hat and his jacket half-off, sitting on a 2'x2' perch where he could have fallen 6000 feet in one direction and 8000 feet in the other. Unbelievable. I would love to see that some day, but I probably don't have the balls for it (or the conditioning, or the $$$$).

The audience spontaneously broke into applause for Mazur at the end of the interview - never seen that before on the Today show. Hall says he still intends to earn a living as a trekking guide, but says he will never go up to altitudes like that again.

 

[JimG.]

WHy do you think so? Was it the subject and description of deaths...or the story (writing)?

I thought the descriptions of the living conditions...and the obvious commitments were compelling reading.

Difficult in an emotional sense only...reading as mistakes were being made and knowing that alot of people were going to die as a result.

 

[Sky]

Difficult in an emotional sense only...reading as mistakes were being made and knowing that alot of people were going to die as a result.

Got it....agreed.

 

[thaller1]

I can't believe I'm saying this..

this is probably the most horrible thing I've ever said..but I can see why people passed the man by.. the trek up Everest is not trip to the mall.. these people prepare for years.. can you imagine having been so close to the top and not able to finish because another hiker you don't even know fell..??

Granted, I don't know how I'd live with myself if that happened..but every person who goes up....takes a risk and other people aren't responsible for you.. sad but true..

 

[Marc]

this is probably the most horrible thing I've ever said..but I can see why people passed the man by.. the trek up Everest is not trip to the mall.. these people prepare for years.. can you imagine having been so close to the top and not able to finish because another hiker you don't even know fell..??

Granted, I don't know how I'd live with myself if that happened..but every person who goes up....takes a risk and other people aren't responsible for you.. sad but true..

Perhaps this is the right time to add my thoughts on this long running topic.

Your quote was appropriate thaller, years of training, hundreds of thousands of dollars spent, and yet after all that, it would still mean worlds more to me to attempt a rescue even at the risk to my own life, even if I knew it was in vain, than it would summiting 20 times. Or for a million dollars. Obviously other people have different values. I'm in no way attempting to take the high moral ground or look down upon anyone, but that's me.

Over the past five years I've been exposed to lots and lots of human death, carnage and injury. More than I cared to be and I'll spare you the gory details. I have been quite desensitized yet I'm still unbreakably ingrained with the responsibility to act, no matter what the circumstances, if a person needs help and I have the ability to render it, no matter how irresponsible the victim was preceding his current circumstances.

No, Jim, I have never been on top of Everest, nor will I ever, but I still am confindent in predicting my actions in such a situation.

Probably why I became involved in the fire service in the first place.



Well that and sh*t blowing up is fricken cool... obviously

:dunce:

 

[thaller1]

Perhaps this is the right time to add my thoughts on this long running topic.

Your quote was appropriate thaller, years of training, hundreds of thousands of dollars spent, and yet after all that, it would still mean worlds more to me to attempt a rescue even at the risk to my own life, even if I knew it was in vain, than it would summiting 20 times. Or for a million dollars. Obviously other people have different values. I'm in no way attempting to take the high moral ground or look down upon anyone, but that's me.

Over the past five years I've been exposed to lots and lots of human death, carnage and injury. More than I cared to be and I'll spare you the gory details. I have been quite desensitized yet I'm still unbreakably ingrained with the responsibility to act, no matter what the circumstances, if a person needs help and I have the ability to render it, no matter how irresponsible the victim was preceding his current circumstances.

No, Jim, I have never been on top of Everest, nor will I ever, but I still am confindent in predicting my actions in such a situation.

Probably why I became involved in the fire service in the first place.



Well that and sh*t blowing up is fricken cool... obviously

:dunce:

Well I hope if I ever climb Mt Everest and fall that someone like you or me is climbing at the same time!

 

[JimG.]

No, Jim, I have never been on top of Everest, nor will I ever, but I still am confindent in predicting my actions in such a situation.

Marc, if anything this discussion should make you aware of the fact that on Everest, nothing is predictable.

I do not mean to belittle your obvious dedication to helping others. And I too hope I would be able to help a fallen climber if put in that scenario.

However, on Everest the mere action of staying alive is sometimes too much to ask. It's as horribly simple as that. Your spirit is obviously willing, but the body may not be able to follow suit. Imagine the unpleasantness of that situation!

My only point is that until you are up there in that situation, don't judge the actions of others who were there. They too may have been willing but physically unable.

 

[David Metsky]

http://www.stuff.co.nz/stuff/0,2106,3696981a11,00.html

More details of what happened. Most folks didn't even know there was a person there until the next day. It appears that when they found him they were on the way down. If they saw him on the way up they thought it was the body of a climber that died in that exact spot years earlier.

It's pretty easy to get confused and mistaken info on these things until everyone is down and clear-headed. And even this information isn't complete, it's just what this one person who wasn't up on the mountain knew.

-dave-

 

[Marc]

Marc, if anything this discussion should make you aware of the fact that on Everest, nothing is predictable.

I think a quality of true character is predicting your actions in undpredictable situations.

 

[JimG.]

I think a quality of true character is predicting your actions in undpredictable situations.

I agree...another quality of true character is being able to think and say "I don't know".

Have you ever faced death trying to save someone else? I don't know, so I'm asking. If you have, you have earned the right to predict how you would react.

If not, you don't know. Period.

 

[awf170]

http://www.mary-woodbridge.co.uk/frameset_mw.html

 

[Marc]

I agree...another quality of true character is being able to think and say "I don't know".

Have you ever faced death trying to save someone else? I don't know, so I'm asking. If you have, you have earned the right to predict how you would react.

If not, you don't know. Period.

Not imminent, no, but there are times I'd say my chances of surviving are approaching 75%. Or I come out and see part of a roof collapsing and say "Hmm... that was lucky..."

Every time I go into a burning building or cut someone out of a car on the side of a busy highway I'm certainly taking much more risk than most people are comfortable. It is just hard to quantify how much a risk it is.