Observations on ski form

[uphillklimber]

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[Greg]

Earlier this year, some one posted how your hands should assume the position of holding your lunch tray, and it was confirmed by several other members here. Funny thing is, that's where it felt most comfy to me.

Sounds like you've had many "ah ha" moments this season. That's great. As for the lunch tray hand position anology, think of it more of the position you would have if you were handing someone a lunch tray. It would be a bit higher and your upper arms would be more extended than if you were carrying it close to your stomach.

As far as stance, that's going to vary based on surface conditions, speed and type of skiing you're doing. Bumps require a tighter stance so you don't have one ski "walking" up the side of the bump as the other drops in the trough. This has been something I'm focusing on this season. Crud and tracked out powder requires a tighter stance too. On your average groomer, a stance width of maybe 6-8" is good. If you're making big sweeping GS turns, your stance will widen quite a bit. Bottom line is there is no defined distance for stance width. And don't start looking at your skis to see if your stance is correct. You need to learn to "read" the terrain and adjust your stance by feel. If you're in crud or bumps, one way to narrow it up is to simply squeeze your knees together a bit. Your stance will tighten as a result without you doing much else.

Keep in mind that I'm not an expert skier, I am not an instructor, and have never even taken a lesson so any tips from me are simply things I've found to work for me.

 

[BeanoNYC]

Hell of a post. I've learned a lot from watching other skiers. Not a day on the slopes go by that I don't "poach" a lesson from a better skier I see on the slope. I'll just follow behind, turn for turn, trying to duplicate his/her movements. I've seen my stance narrow considerably since I've first started. It's much easier in the crud, natural snow and bumps. In his book, Dan Dipiro (Sp?) makes an observation that makes perfect sense to me: If your legs are spread apart on the bumps then you run the risk of having on leg higher than the other, putting you off balance. (Obviously not verbatim.)

My ski buddies are much better skiers than I am and I benefit from it immensely.

 

[hammer]

Sounds like you've had many "ah ha" moments this season. That's great. As for the lunch tray hand position anology, think of it more of the position you would have if you were handing someone a lunch tray. It would be a bit higher and your upper arms would be more extended than if you were carrying it close to your stomach.

As far as stance, that's going to vary based on surface conditions, speed and type of skiing you're doing. Bumps require a tighter stance so you don't have one ski "walking" up the side of the bump as the other drops in the trough. This has been something I'm focusing on this season. Crud and tracked out powder requires a tighter stance too. On your average groomer, a stance width of maybe 6-8" is good. If you're making big sweeping GS turns, your stance will widen quite a bit. Bottom line is there is no defined distance for stance width. And don't start looking at your skis to see if your stance is correct. You need to learn to "read" the terrain and adjust your stance by feel. If you're in crud or bumps, one way to narrow it up is to simply squeeze your knees together a bit. Your stance will tighten as a result without you doing much else.

Keep in mind that I'm not an expert skier, I am not an instructor, and have never even taken a lesson so any tips from me are simply things I've found to work for me.

I know what you mean about stance width...I was trying to do a lot this season to get my skis closer together and, when I had a lesson, the instructor was getting me to work on putting the skis further apart when carving turns. Since then, I have been working on keeping my stance wider doing large turns (helps me to use the inside ski more to carve) and tighten my stance when I have to make shorter turns.

Also, as far as hand position is concerned, I was told to hold the hands up just so that they are in my peripheral vision. Got some inputs on making my hands more active that is also helping.

Now if I could just stay out of the back seat when I get tired...:???:

 

[spresso81]

Great post.

I definitly think that by watching others and reading posts on this site, you can improve your skiing a bit.

I have asked for advice on this site and it has been really helpful.


Hand position probably is the most improtant tool to skiing. The "lunch tray" addage is a great way to think about skiing. If you have your hands here, than you keep your weight forward and stay out of the back seat. Even when after hitting a bump I feel tired, the first thing I think of is to not drop my hands!!


As for foot position, I keep my feet about 8 inches apart. I really feel comforatble in that zone. It is enough space for me to feel balanced but also if I am approaching a bumppy area I can still navigate the area without having my feet fly apart.

 

[2knees]

funny about the stance thing. i keep my feet and skis so locked together that i burn holes in my wind pants in about one season. I'm always trying to tell myself to spread out a bit, but just cant. i do always have my downhill ski/boot slightly behind my uphill one so there is a separation as far as movement, but its a weird habit to break.

 

[riverc0il]

Hand position probably is the most improtant tool to skiing. The "lunch tray" addage is a great way to think about skiing. If you have your hands here, than you keep your weight forward and stay out of the back seat. Even when after hitting a bump I feel tired, the first thing I think of is to not drop my hands!!

I really disagree with this. Proper posture in general is important to proper skiing technique, hand position is only one part of posture and I disagree it is the most important tool to skiing. Also disagree that keeping your hands in the proper position will keep you out of the back seat. You can just as easily be in the back seat with your hands up. Race coaches used to say drive your hands down the hill, which is a helpful thing to remember and try to do. But you can feel like you are driving your hands forward from the back seat. Consciousness of ankle, knee, and hip flexion is the critical aspect to getting out of the back seat. The hands drive the wheel, but forward/backward position is mostly a below the waist function.

Watching other skiers was a critical aspect for me progressing from groomers only to moguls and then finally to true all mountain, any condition skiing.

As Greg pointed out, there are several appropriate stance positions depending on type of snow and conditions. There is no one 100% correct skiing body position. What there is, are fundamental techniques that once learned form the basics for application of advanced skiing technique that can be applied when needed. It is like a skilled craftsman pulling out the right tool for the job depending on what needs to be done. Dial in every part of your body from your toe to your ankle to your knee to your hip and so on. Once you are feeling how your body works, you'll know how best to use the fundamentals to approach any snow condition. Once it all clicks, it is an amazing feeling.

 

[spresso81]

Good point RiverOil. I am far from a source of information on skiing - actually this is only my 3rd season of skiing and probably the season of my most improvement.

I was just suggesting that out of all the things I have heard/read these tools have helped me the most.

I thinkin all actuality, that each person can ski their own way and be sucessful. However, the key remains the same - to keep your weight foward. For me, the lunch tray position for my hands serves this purpose.:grin:

 

[Goblin84]

ok...i wont lie. It is late and I didnt read the full post...or any response. I have an early practice to coach in the morning and need sleep...

anyway. "feet spread Bode Miller style (yup, I watched him, too). " ...yeah...never do anything bode does. he isnt well known for his form

 

[KevinF]

I remember an instructor telling me (in the context of the discussion we were having) that there really is no "right" way to ski, so long as you are in control. The form that he likes to teach helps you to ski all day, without burning up your quads.

I've usually heard this said as "there is no right or wrong way to ski; there are more efficient ways to ski though"

 

[goldsbar]

The problem is, many ski instructors are not experts in skiing or instructing - very similar to "experts" in many other fields. Many people that spew information on Internet forums, including myself, are not expert instructors. The guy that looks great on the slope may know nothing about technique - luck in learning and athleticism can go a long way to looking good. You can't just look at WC racers and think you know what they're doing. Sure, their feet may look wide apart but maybe that's just due to angulation. In fact, their skis may be touching their thighs which would indicate a close together stance for the breif .001 second their skis are flat. Also, the goal of getting down a course as fast a possible that's purposefully setup so you can't fully carve it isn't necessarily 100% correlated with good recreational skiing. (BTW, Bode Miller is often criticized for technique)

So what do you do? IMO, the cheapest method is to find some authors that "ring a bell" with you. Harald Harb worked for me for general skiing as did Dan Dipiro (sp?) on the mogul side. This creates a good (maybe?) base for judging instructors and random forum advisors like myself.

Hands - keep them wherever you want, lunch tray is a good suggestion. Most important thing is to never, ever, never let your upper body move in response to poles. Flick with the wrists, not shoulders or torso. The drive forward advice leads many of the uninformed to bend at the waist like a gorilla.

Feet - where a you balanced when you walk? That's probably pretty close to your proper ski stance.

 

[hammer]

So what do you do? IMO, the cheapest method is to find some authors that "ring a bell" with you. Harald Harb worked for me for general skiing as did Dan Dipiro (sp?) on the mogul side. This creates a good (maybe?) base for judging instructors and random forum advisors like myself.

I agree on getting some good books, but I have found the $$ on an occasional lesson and trying to ski with others who are better then I am (not hard to find) to be much more worthwhile. As much as I look for advice and tips in books and on ski forums, for some reason I have a hard time transferring the information when I'm on the slopes. Making observations and getting input and advice while I'm on the slopes tends to be better for me.

I have one of Harald Harb's books but actually I find Mark Elling's "The All-Mountain Skier" to be a better read, mainly because it provides input and advice without being dogmatic or sounding like a sales pitch. I can see how the PMTS books can be useful, though...

 

[Greg]

Hand position probably is the most improtant tool to skiing. The "lunch tray" addage is a great way to think about skiing. If you have your hands here, than you keep your weight forward and stay out of the back seat. Even when after hitting a bump I feel tired, the first thing I think of is to not drop my hands!!

I really disagree with this. Proper posture in general is important to proper skiing technique, hand position is only one part of posture and I disagree it is the most important tool to skiing. Also disagree that keeping your hands in the proper position will keep you out of the back seat. You can just as easily be in the back seat with your hands up.

I think the point here is that good hand position doesn't guarantee good fore/aft balance, but rather is a prerequisite for it. Sure you can fall back with your hands up, but if you're dragging your hands, you're almost sure to fall back.

Many people that spew information on Internet forums, including myself, are not expert instructors.

Raises hand. And precidely why I included a disclaimer with my post. With that said, I've learned a lot reading posts here and on other forums and why I try to share what works for me with others as well. Perhaps coming from a skier-to-skier perspective, we can share technique tips in a way that makes more sense than reading them in a book, or from a crappy instructor for that matter.

Feet - where a you balanced when you walk? That's probably pretty close to your proper ski stance.

Which is probably tighter than you think. My initial thought was a walking stance is probably slightly less than shoulder width apart until I got up and tried it. It's actually only a couple inches apart unless you like to walk like a cowboy or something...

Here's another thing that has been working for me this season (again - this is coming from a non-professional, non-instructor, low to mid-advanced skier). Try exaggerating turn initiation with the tips and front of your skis. To get a feel for this - let the skis to dive into to the turn, then work on getting the tails to swing around and complete the turn. Even try to get the tails up off the snow a bit to really exaggerate it. I've been practicing this a ton this season and it has really helped keep me balanced and out of the back seat.

 

[gladerider]

uphillklimber

i've been skiing for about 20 years now. and one thing i've learned is that there is no one right way. somebody's top 10 checklist may not fit yours. it really is about "what style do you want." i've spoken to many skiers and here are some styles i've found:
- racers
- mogul lovers
- powder lovers
- freestyle
- park riders
even if you fit into a single category, you may like a specific person's style. we all ski differently. some good skiers i know are very good at adjusting to any types of terrain using many different styles.
as for me, i find my self trying out all different types of styles. one day i try gs slalom style and another day i try freestyle. and, i sometimes run into a nice long run of moguls or a pipe. i am a firm believer that an expert skier should be able to ski any types of terrain at any marked trails. now if you are going backcountry and off-piste, you may be above this level. i guess we are all striving to be an expert?
i am still learning and trying to figure it out...but, let's not forget. we all do this for fun. right? as long as you are having fun.....looks like you are....

 

[Skier75]

uphillklimber

i've been skiing for about 20 years now. and one thing i've learned is that there is no one right way. somebody's top 10 checklist may not fit yours. it really is about "what style do you want." i've spoken to many skiers and here are some styles i've found:
- racers
- mogul lovers
- powder lovers
- freestyle
- park riders
even if you fit into a single category, you may like a specific person's style. we all ski differently. some good skiers i know are very good at adjusting to any types of terrain using many different styles.
as for me, i find my self trying out all different types of styles. one day i try gs slalom style and another day i try freestyle. and, i sometimes run into a nice long run of moguls or a pipe. i am a firm believer that an expert skier should be able to ski any types of terrain at any marked trails. now if you are going backcountry and off-piste, you may be above this level. i guess we are all striving to be an expert?
i am still learning and trying to figure it out...but, let's not forget. we all do this for fun. right? as long as you are having fun.....looks like you are....

Absolutely agree, and yes I having great fun this year, most fun I've had in a year or two!!!!! I am trying to get better in the bumps right now, and what works on the grommed trail doesn't necassarily apply on the bumps. I really want to be able to confidently ski the trees. Learn the bumps first, then the trees, which often have the bumps. Jay peak has some very shallow trees to practice on. Gives me that "James Bond chase thru the trees on skiis" feeling.

 

[BeanoNYC]

Jay peak has some very shallow trees to practice on. Gives me that "James Bond chase thru the trees on skiis" feeling.

I believe kokomo is designated as a tree run. The trees are FAR apart on that trail.