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Otten To Reportedly Buy Back Sugarloaf, Sunday River
- Thread starter Greg
- Start date
ctenidae
Active member
The Metro- truly the strongest reporting service available in Boston. From another AP source:
"He also wouldn't say what businesses he wants to pursue and, citing a confidentiality agreement, wouldn't comment on reports that he'll return to the American Skiing Co. he founded. The company forced him out in 2001, shortly before Otten and a group of investors led by John Henry bought the Red Sox for $660 million."
My final word (yeah, right) on investing in the stock market- if you don't like it and don't agree with it, don't do it. Of course, your mattress probably won't do a good job of building up your retirement savings, but that's not my problem. In the end, anywhere you put your money expecting to earn a return of any sort is going to be affected by the stock market in some way or other. Or at least the bond market, which is affected by and affects the stock market.
jerryg
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In speaking of "Blue Chip" companies, I was referring to traditional American industry. There is no true definition, but you do make a good point and I concede to that. However, I disagree about the losing money part. One may invest in a stock that loses value and if they sell, they lose money, but if you hold onto it, you don't know whether you will lose money. You may or you may not. You can't consider money that is invested in a stock as cash on hand. Again, just my opinion.
Yes, hugely hijacked.
Back to the topic...
Perhaps ASC splits up. Oak Hill and B.J. Fair take the Canyons and the assumed debt and continue doing whatever it is they are doing while Sunday River and Sugarloaf remain under the name ASC, which is divested of the Canyons and all other debts and assets (save SR and SL) and sold to LBO as those two companies as a publically traded entity. Sounds weird and not a good decision for Oak Hill, but then again, the outstanding debt is all theirs anyway. Very odd, indeed.
ctenidae
Active member
Otten ought to take the name and Maine, with the debt, declare bankruptcy to wipe Oak out, then continue on his merry way as a private company.
I don't think Oak would go for that, but it would, at least, get it off their books.
I don't think Oak would go for that, but it would, at least, get it off their books.
ski_resort_observer
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Remember 2 years ago when we talked about a mutual fund made up of ski related companies. Vail Resorts(MTN) is up 140% since then. Another fish that got away...
BTW, I think those boys down in Texas are pretty happy right now with the over 400m they have gotten so far from the sales of the resorts. Gotta make the meetings alot shorter too. :wink:
Last edited:
ctenidae
Active member
Remember 2 years ago when we talked about a mutual fund made up of ski related companies. Vail Resorts(MTN) is up 140% since then. Another fish that got away...
Yup. Still amazes me it's done that well. Of course, I can't claim to be particularly good at stock picking. I'm a lot better at not liking them than I am at liking them.
You see this? http://www.forbes.com/feeds/ap/2007/04/04/ap3583299.html
This I agree with. If you want to get in on the fix, stand next to Vinny when he places his bet at the betting window and do what he does.
MadPadraic
Active member
I think he was kidding. At least I hope he was. There are some really big differences between the stock market and a casino. First, casino games are essentially zero sum. One party takes from the other. In the stock market there is wealth creation: for you to make money, doesn't require that I lose money. Second, gambling games have well defined probability distributions that do not work in your favor. Overtime the law of large numbers will take your money. The stock market tends upwards overtime, and hence being involved pays off over time. The market rewards skill, but you don't need to do Econ undergrad at Brown, 2 years at a bulge bracket and then Columbia B school to make money in it. Some common sense along the lines of "wow, companies with no expectations of profits shouldn't be worth 18 billion dollars. No mature company deserves a P/E of 100."
Anyway back on topic. Will LBO keep sunday river open into May?
To a degree I was...in general, I don't trust big business and powerful CEO's. Not even as far as I could throw them.
Look what Otten left behind when he bailed out on ASC.
How's that for a segue back on topic?
ctenidae
Active member
I don't think Otten at ASC gets to be counted as "big business" or a "powerful CEO"
I think he had an idea, some people thought it was a good one, and he and the team couldn't execute. Often that's what happens. I don't know that I'd characterize him as bailing out, either. Rather, it went bad and everyone involved realized it was beyond his ability to fix, so he resigned/got canned/take your pick.
MadPadraic
Active member
Great way to get back on topic!
(I had meant that I thought Ctenidae was kidding about comparing investment to nuclear weapons design and heart surgery).
Here is a question: if Otten had never become involved, where would SR (and the loaf) be? I've never skied either one, but people seem to think that SR initially improved under him. So is his total impact on SR good or bad?
ctenidae
Active member
They're all things that should only be done by people who know something about it, is all I meant. Not undertakings to be taken on casually, and such.
Same for betting on horses or playing poker. Unless you like to lose.
Speaking of losing, I'm sure not happy I'm losing out on skiing somewhere this coming weekend.
andyzee
New member
jerryg
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I assume you are kidding. "people seem to think that SR initially improved under him."
When he got the papers from K to fully own SR, it was 2 chairs and 2 t's - maybe 20 trails. This was in the late 70's. Even prior to ASC, he had 7 peaks, 500,000 skier visits, and well-over 100 trails with 18 lifts.
I suppose it's how you look at it...:idea:
i don't agree with how he cut many of the newer trails, but there is no doubt in my mind that he brought sr back from the dead. i remeber going west for a few years in the 90's and couldn't beleive it when i came back. times were good then, but it almost seems like sr is a little more sleepy now. i kind of like that.
yeah from what i understood, SKI (owners of k) wanted to dump sunday river and sold it to him for a song. he certainly turned a molehill into a mountain. since the river is pretty much fully built out, i guess he could (for better or worse) do the same for the loaf.
Breeze
Member
There is really a lot of history, MP, and a lot lost in the mists of time and internet speculation over ASC.
Les began his ski area-management career post Uni at Killington as an administrative assistant/intern. Preston Smith was the owner of Killington at that time, and he had Les working every where on the mountain needing a pair of hands. Les eventually married Preston's daughter Chris. Les has a significant family wealth, as does Chris.
Les bought Sunday River from Killington Corp for $800,000 dollars. Killington owned it as a development project after purchasing SR from the Bethel Area Development Corporation . The BADC was a group of local Bethel residents who hoped there were good things in store for a one-lift local ski area, who had bought shares to keep it running and afloat so a buyer could be found with financial muscle.
Les and Chris both had significant resources to make a move,and significant backing from Killington in financing and mentoring, to make it happen. They did, and from the early1980's to mid 1990's, LBO grew SR far from its infancy( one Barker Chair and a rope tow that existed where Lot 5 is today). He had the help of some super dedicated people, all of whom recognized the powers of Duct tape, paperclips, and WD-40 to make a fix. In the early days, LBO could be out with the snowmakers hauling hose, driving a groomer, or in Rentals, setting up skis.
His negotianal presence here at the bidding table is STILL is a function of the real estate he and Chris purchased with their own private investment dollars, and with deeds to same.
Bottom line is, the Sunday River we now know might not be any where near what it is ( and it is what it is ) if anyone other than LBO had driven the bus.
Not that it matters much in today's carnivorous investment environment, but I can remember to this day LBO interviewing BJ Fair in a local Bethel restaurant over lunch. Poor BJ got raked over the coals, eastern resorts are much different than their western counterparts, and 11 years ago Bj was a true dude looking for a gig. His tan significantly faded when in the presence of LBO.
This all means nada until a sale is announced and closed.
Breeze
darent
Active member
otten ad asc
junk bond financing has been the downfall of a few ski area owners trying to go big.SR greatlly improved under otten, then his eyes got awful big!! the rest is history, that seems to repeat itself.
junk bond financing has been the downfall of a few ski area owners trying to go big.SR greatlly improved under otten, then his eyes got awful big!! the rest is history, that seems to repeat itself.
