Possibly relocating to Vermont, what to expect?

[Bene288]

May be making the move out of NY due to several reasons. How are the taxes, standard of living and overall lifestyle? I am in the construction trade which there is always work available, and my fiancé has a very good job in which she works from home. We're trying to get somewhere that has a small town vibe , but isn't so rural I need to travel 30 minutes to the grocery store.

Any suggestions?

 

[ScottySkis]

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Burlington.

 

[drjeff]

Taxes are high and that's before the highly unfunded VT healthcare law gets fully implemented (read as more taxes) and if many get their way and have VT Yankee not have its license renewed and over 1/2 of the states cheap energy is lost, you'll see those rates going up too
That being said, if it wasn't for the geographical challenges that it would present for my wife's career, i'd probably move there full time as opposed the 75 to 80 days a year that I reside in VT a year now

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[thetrailboss]

I'm going to be honest here and try not to get too political. I hope that you have either won the lottery or are independently wealthy because Vermont is just not an affordable place anymore and it is getting much worse. I'm a native Vermonter who grew up in the Kingdom. After college and grad schoolI was making about half of what folks in my same industry were making in other nearby states. My wife and I really want to own a home--not a mansion but a starter home. In order to do that in Vermont and be able to be near good jobs you need to plan on paying at least $300k and then prepared to pay $6-10k in property taxes each year. Factor in other taxes, lower pay, fewer opportunities, higher cost of living, and it just doesn't work for younger folks. Vermont used to be a place where you could get a decent home at a good price, a decent career with lower, but manageable salary, and a lower cost of living. But because of folks moving up, the anti-development crowd, folks who feel that they are entitled to everything, folks who want move services, and a very large population that needs services but can't pay for them, the state is quickly becoming a very expensive place to live for the average joe.

Critics are quick to dismiss these concerns as "pessimism" and point to census data that says that the population is growing or staying roughly the same. But it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that you need to look deeper. Economists have noted that the same census data shows that young families (i.e. the folks in the prime earning years of their careers) are leaving while retirees are coming in. So the changing demographic is not only making it harder to meet folks your age (assuming you are in your 20's or 30's or even 40's) but that it is making your cost of living higher because the folks who are not working, and likely want or need services (which includes emergency services, healthcare, etc) are not generating taxable wages that support these services.

We had a hard time leaving andI feel somewhat defeated that we could not "make it" in Vermont....with two professional degrees in our household. I'm actually pretty upset at the officialdom in the state who refuse to listen to me and other young folks' concerns and continue to be very narrowminded in terms of what to do (which is ironic). But our move to Utah has really been a good one. It was tough for me at first to get a new job in this market, but I am now making almost twice what I was in Vermont doing the same work, we can afford our rental housing and are now working with a realtor to find a very nice home right in the city here for a very affordable price, we will pay less than half or even a third in property taxes, see folks like us--20 and 30 somethings with kids, and read everyday about new companies coming and new opportunities rather than folks protesting wind farms because they aren't "green." It is just unreal how things here are so different and so much better. And having 500" of average snow at several world class ski areas that are 30 minutes from my house works well for me as well.

In all honesty our move was a business decision. We needed a place with higher income potential, lower costs of living, better housing and more affordable options, and great outdoor rec opportunities. SLC aced all categories.

So I am being blunt and probably very frank. Don't expect to be in the Bob Newhart show or to be able to eat Ben and Jerry's each day while enjoying the simple life. Vermont has a lot of issues that they are not addressing and the demographic changes will only make it more expensive for the folks already there and more difficult for the average Joe to move ahead. I know that you think NY is bad, but at least you have the potential to make a higher income whereas Vermont you won't but you will pay the same in costs of living and taxes.

 

[Puck it]

New Hampshire is much better if in the right town.

 

[thetrailboss]

New Hampshire is much better if in the right town.

Agree. NH has, generally, a better economy. Folks in my industry made, on average, 30% more in NH than VT right out of school.

 

[Geoff]

I'm going to be honest here and try not to get too political. I hope that you have either won the lottery or are independently wealthy because Vermont is just not an affordable place anymore and it is getting much worse.

The state income taxes are awful unless you make no money.

Single
$0 to $34,500 - 3.55%
$34,500 to $83,600 - 6.8%
$83,600 to $174,400 - 7.8%
$174,400 to $379,150 - 8.8%
Above that 8.95%

New Hampshire has no income tax. Massholia is a 5.3% flat tax.

 

[Puck it]

The state income taxes are awful unless you make no money.

Single
$0 to $34,500 - 3.55%
$34,500 to $83,600 - 6.8%
$83,600 to $174,400 - 7.8%
$174,400 to $379,150 - 8.8%
Above that 8.95%

New Hampshire has no income tax. Massholia is a 5.3% flat tax.

Unless Mini Me aka Cadiallac Deval raises it and adds the $0.025 per mile driven. We are still better then VT though.

 

[Nick]

Maybe you can get a construction gig up in the NEK on all the Jay Peak initiatives

I'd be interestedin hearing from vdk03 - his family is all in Vermont and he is in the construction trade as well. They just moved out to Breck from VT about a year ago and I'm interested on his take on the economy and getting work. They lived more in the Rutland area.

 

[SKIQUATTRO]

Not to hijack your thread, but we are looking to move out of NY (LI) and up to the central CT area (not set in stone) but thats where i grew up, we feel we can get more for our money, have a better quality of life without sacraficing schools, culture etc....we're at the 35,000' view now but are seriously looking into it....

 

[Nick]

Unless Mini Me aka Cadiallac Deval raises it and adds the $0.025 per mile driven. We are still better then VT though.

MA has the advantage of being a population center with a lot of technology innovation. I think further out west in the Catskills MA faces some of the same issues as VT probably does.

Didn't huck_it_baby just move to Vermont?

Bene: are you self employed contractor?

 

[thetrailboss]

The state income taxes are awful unless you make no money.

Bingo.

 

[thetrailboss]

Re: MA.

Higher costs of living and higher taxes overall, but as Nick said, if you live in the 495 belt you can make substantially more to offset that. Western MA, well, no real industry left out there.

 

[o3jeff]

Also depends on what you do in the construction industry. I'm a supplier for large commercial projects and while there's the new phases at Sugarbush, Jay and Killingtons peak lodge, there isn't a lot else going on there compared to MA and CT. While there is some new construction stuff going on, there is tons of rehabs of multi-family housing and old mill conversions with a lot of government money coming down for energy upgrades.

 

[Glenn]

The guys above have covered it pretty well. It's a pretty expensive place to live. On our weekend place, we pay a good amount in property taxes. The electricity is also fairly expensive as well; watch that go up if the Yankee closes. They're also a really "briliant" idea being floated by the state government: Taxing heating fuel. Where do they come up with this ___? We do love it up there; it's nice and so are most of the people. If I were retiring soon, however, I'd probably look into New Hampshire as well.

 

[mlctvt]

If I were retiring soon, however, I'd probably look into New Hampshire as well.

I agree with Glenn. My wife and I own a condo at Mount Snow and we've discussed retiring in VT in 8-10 years or so. That was before I really looked into things. We'll be looking into NH as well as western states like Utah.

Vermont is regularly in the "Worse 10 states to retire to " lists due to taxation.
Our residence is in CT which also makes the same lists often. Why do we own in 2 of the most expensive states?

 

[gmcunni]

Any suggestions?

Colorado

 

[riverc0il]

TB has things covered from the native Vermonter leaving due to lack of jobs for business professionals. If you are in construction, you may or may not have better luck depending on the region you move to. Your fiancé having a work from home job means that at least you'll have steady income even if you have a hard time or jobs are not consistent.

Here is my perspective having moved to Vermont (StJ) and then having left after only two years...

I went with a job in hand at LSC, my partner was finishing up her education at the time so she did the part time student thing. We rented in StJ. We had a really hard time finding friends. What we found was that the younger crowd was either A) getting pregnant and starting up a family or B) leaving. So there wasn't much of the late 20s/early 30s crowd without children (nothing wrong with children, but we found that people with kids did kid things and had other families as friends and the mentality was just completely different). Shockingly, despite the area, I didn't find a lot of outdoor enthusists though lots of people into Nascar, snowmobiling, and country music (again, nothing wrong with that... but it just wasn't the culture we were into). Lots of older folks and retirees and whatnot that shared many of our ideals but we couldn't really find any one our age. So from a cultural perspective, we just didn't fit in.

That was in StJ, the so called "seat" of the NEK. You mentioned wanting a small town vibe, but the more rural you get, I suspect you'll find the cultural differences are only more striking. As a transplant, you'll certainly be taken with a grain of salt. Don't expect people to be welcoming. Hospitable maybe, but you are moving in and taking their job and bringing foreign culture.

What are the exceptions? Known transplant havens. Burlington of course. Mad River Valley for sure. But once you start looking at transplant and cultural havens, cost of living goes up substantially.

I had another job opportunity in NH and took it, no regrets (except that had I declined my current opening, there was an opening at JSC that happened just a few months after I took my current position... could have been spitting distance from Mansfield and Smuggs but that is the way it goes). NH is a lot more welcoming, less cultural differences. Same issue with not a lot of younger folks without children up here but not as much of an issue closer to Manch.

Everyone else covered the tax situation pretty well but I don't think that is a great reason to decide where to live. Others will strongly disagree. It wasn't something I gave any thought to when I moved to NH from VT, though.

I'm a strong proponent of the perspective that skiers romanticize Vermont because they love going there to ski and recreate and what not. But living there is a major culture shock (if you aren't in Burlington area), especially if you come from a city or suburban environment and move into a rural one. I'm not saying I advise against it, I'm sure tons of people make the move and love it. But you gotta do it for the right reasons and understand what you are moving into... it isn't the same place you see when you go to visit and ski.

 

[deadheadskier]

The state income taxes are awful unless you make no money.

Single
$0 to $34,500 - 3.55%
$34,500 to $83,600 - 6.8%
$83,600 to $174,400 - 7.8%
$174,400 to $379,150 - 8.8%
Above that 8.95%

New Hampshire has no income tax. Massholia is a 5.3% flat tax.

Maine is even worse than VT. I've lived in both places and have no desire to return because of their income tax schedules.

If your income range is between $0 and $4,850, your tax rate on every dollar of income earned is 2%.
If your income range is between $4,851 and $9,700, your tax rate on every dollar of income earned is 4.5%.
If your income range is between $9,701 and $19,450, your tax rate on every dollar of income earned is 7%.
If your income range is $19,451 and over, your tax rate on every dollar of income earned is 8.5%.

 

[tekweezle]

I believe the no state tax ski states are New Hampshire, Wyoming, Washington St, and arguably Nevada. What's the pros and cons of relocating to any of them? Obviously amenities and being far from major population centers. They must make up for the short fall somehow.

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