Possibly relocating to Vermont, what to expect?

[deadheadskier]

I believe the no state tax ski states are New Hampshire, Wyoming, Washington St, and arguably Nevada. What's the pros and cons of relocating to any of them? Obviously amenities and being far from major population centers. They must make up for the short fall somehow.

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Only real downfall I find living in Southeastern NH is it's a bit far for my liking from the N.Vermont snow belt, but overall I love living here.

 

[thetrailboss]

ME: I knew it was as bad if not worse than VT, but I did not realize that the income tax burden was that.

 

[Edd]

Only real downfall I find living in Southeastern NH is it's a bit far for my liking from the N.Vermont snow belt, but overall I love living here.

Ditto. 2 hours to the Loon/Cannon area, 1 hour from Gunstock, 2 hours to North Conway, 2.5 to Sunday River, 1 hour to Portland or Boston, and you have the beaches here. Also, it's pretty uncrowded compared to areas to the immediate south. I think of moving sometimes because this area isn't really the best at anything but there's a lot of good stuff within easy-ish reach.

 

[Bene288]

Wow, lots of responses! TB, Riv, and others, thanks for the input. I was always under the impression that VT was the lower taxed state but I must have been mixing in up with NH. The move has nothing to do with ski location, We are just sick of NY. I won't get into the politics.

I have no objection to NH. Never skied there, but I hear it's great and it's pretty close to VT! I visited Keene once looking at colleges and I really liked it. I've lived in Boston, and it's expensive, but you get the income to match the higher cost of living. In Albany everything is expensive. Gas is the highest in the country next to California I think, rental and property values are way to high for the area. I live in a small (about 500sq/ft) 2 bed home in uptown Albany. I am paying close to $1000 just in rental, I know rent is just throwing money away and a mortgage would be cheaper, BUT I would never buy here. There are cheaper places in Albany, but this is the safest area, however I still don't feel safe on my street. When I was younger I didn't the have the steady work I have now, so I couldn't afford the uptown area. We lived in 2 other apartments in the city and they both got broken into and robbed several times, witnessed a stabbing, race riot, had 4 murders in 2 months, all within 7 blocks of where I lived. Sure there are better places in NY, but the rental rates are even higher in neighboring towns. A lot of people don't realize how rural upstate is if you're not near the Capital District.

On top of it all, the residential construction field in pretty tough to get ahead in. Luckily for me I have some very loyal, very wealthy clients that keep me going for months at a time. Growing up in MA, you didn't see the huge developments and McMansions. A small builder/remodel company like myself can make a good buck out there, but here in NY, you need to build up huge 200-500 home developments. The whole New England vibe is much more modest than upstate NY, it was when I lived there anyway.

Thank you all for your advice. It's very helpful. I will look into NH, maybe even MA again. I'm actually reffing at a hockey tourney in Meredith, NH in a few weeks, so I'll be in the area. Can you guys (Deadhead and Edd especially) recommend any towns to check out in the southern NH area?

 

[deadheadskier]

FWIW - both my brother and uncle have contracting companies in the Quechee / Woodstock area. They get by for the same reason you do; they have a few wealthy clients that keep them busy with the majority of their work. New construction is extremely limited. IMO having lived in the Burlington and Stowe areas, VT has a very unfavorable income to cost of living ratio. $1000 a month would get you a rundown 2 BR apartment in Burlington or Stowe at best. I have a number of friends from the Albany area who have relocated to Burlington in recent years and they all say their money went a lot further in Albany, but they made the move for quality of life reasons; i.e. access to the outdoor opportunities in VT.

 

[xwhaler]

Can you guys (Deadhead and Edd especially) recommend any towns to check out in the southern NH area?

I'll try and help as we live in Epping which is technically the Seacoast as NH classifies theior tourism regions. Epping is the western-most town before you get into the "Merrimack Valley Region".
We have been here for 6+ yrs now....really love it. Have seen a lot of growth in the town in a short amt of time. Anyone traveling between Portsmouth and Manchester passes by Epping and you can visually see all the comemrical development right from the highway. We just got a 12 screen movie theatre, Market Basket, Lowes, Walmart, Tractor Supply are all here. Restaurants up and down Route 125 with more on the way. However go off 125 and there is a nice mix of new development with old farms and open spaces/neighborhoods. It feels like the country in some ways while still being 5 mins from everything you would realistically need for day to day shopping/entertainment.
If you want a more vibrant bar scene Manchester is 20-25 mins away. Portsmouth is 30 and Boston/Portland are just over an hour.
I'm real into boating so I trailer my boat over to the ocean most wknds in the summer and launch in Portsmouth for cruising the river, Isle of Shoals, etc.
We originally had wanted to be closer to the ocean...we looked at Dover/Durham/Portsmouth but couldn;t find what we wanted. I preferred a larger lot and 2 car garage. We could get that in Durham but the taxes were quite high...Dover had the generally smaller lots and Portsmouth is a bit pricey.
Skiing wise it's smiliar to what Edd and Ryan have mentioned. I'm closer to the 93 corridor so last wknd I was at Waterville in 1 hr 25 mins door to door from my house. Loon/Cannon are roughly similiar. If you're willing to drive 2.5 hrs each way you can be at a lot of mtns in Southern/Central/Northern VT. Smuggs, Stowe, Jay not withstanding.

The immediate seacoast is still a bit expensive but if you are willing to be a bit west of 95 and a bit East of 93 theres a big zone where I think housing is affordable and good access to the major highways. Raymond, Deerfield, Chester, Candia, Fremont, Epping are all real nice little towns that prob will only to continue to grow as the urbran sprawl makes it way north.

 

[mlctvt]

Thanks for the info Xwhaler. My wife and I are considering selling our condo at Mount Snow in a few years and buying a small house in the SE New Hampshire area. We are considering the same towns you looked at, we'll be sure to look at the entire area including Epping this year. The plan is to buy a place which will become our retirement home in 8-10 years. We'll probably be traveling alot and spending winters in Utah and Colorado and other western states so the distance to local skiing wouldn't mater too much. We ski but we are also into road cycling and sea kayaking too, NH and southern Maine are fantastic for that too.
We'll probably rent a house for a year or so to be certain before buying.

 

[thetrailboss]

Wow, lots of responses! TB, Riv, and others, thanks for the input. I was always under the impression that VT was the lower taxed state but I must have been mixing in up with NH. The move has nothing to do with ski location, We are just sick of NY. I won't get into the politics.

I have no objection to NH. Never skied there, but I hear it's great and it's pretty close to VT! I visited Keene once looking at colleges and I really liked it. I've lived in Boston, and it's expensive, but you get the income to match the higher cost of living. In Albany everything is expensive. Gas is the highest in the country next to California I think, rental and property values are way to high for the area. I live in a small (about 500sq/ft) 2 bed home in uptown Albany. I am paying close to $1000 just in rental, I know rent is just throwing money away and a mortgage would be cheaper, BUT I would never buy here. There are cheaper places in Albany, but this is the safest area, however I still don't feel safe on my street. When I was younger I didn't the have the steady work I have now, so I couldn't afford the uptown area. We lived in 2 other apartments in the city and they both got broken into and robbed several times, witnessed a stabbing, race riot, had 4 murders in 2 months, all within 7 blocks of where I lived. Sure there are better places in NY, but the rental rates are even higher in neighboring towns. A lot of people don't realize how rural upstate is if you're not near the Capital District.

On top of it all, the residential construction field in pretty tough to get ahead in. Luckily for me I have some very loyal, very wealthy clients that keep me going for months at a time. Growing up in MA, you didn't see the huge developments and McMansions. A small builder/remodel company like myself can make a good buck out there, but here in NY, you need to build up huge 200-500 home developments. The whole New England vibe is much more modest than upstate NY, it was when I lived there anyway.

Thank you all for your advice. It's very helpful. I will look into NH, maybe even MA again. I'm actually reffing at a hockey tourney in Meredith, NH in a few weeks, so I'll be in the area. Can you guys (Deadhead and Edd especially) recommend any towns to check out in the southern NH area?

$1,000 rental in Burlington: rundown 1 BR if you are lucky, no utilities. More like a room in a shared apartment :roll: And if you don't like NY politics you are not going to like VT politics at all. And a $1,000 per month mortgage would buy you nothing.

You could consider looking at places like Rutland or Barre/Montpelier, but you will find that these areas are very gritty and have a lot of problems with crime and drugs.

So yeah, look to NH if you want to move in the NE.

 

[deadheadskier]

You could consider looking at places like Rutland or Barre/Montpelier, but you will find that these areas are very gritty and have a lot of problems with crime and drugs.

Yeah, stay off the mean streets of Barre and Rutland after dark. :lol:

Burlington has WAY more crime and drug problems than anywhere else in the state. Just because it's got a lot of money and is prettier than Barre and Rutland doesn't mean it's a safer place to live with fewer drug problems. Do people ever caution others about crime and drugs when they are moving to Burlington? No. Because those problems aside, it's a fine and very safe place to live. Same is true of anywhere in the state including Barre and Rutland, which again have far less crime than Btown, they just are more economically depressed, so one would assume the crime is worse.

I'm sorry, but I get a chuckle out of any suggestion of crime and drug problem considerations anywhere in the State of VT when people are discussing where others should consider residing in the state.

Cambridge, MA looks like Juarez, Mexico compared to anywhere in VT in terms of crime and drugs. Most would say it's a fantastic place to live if you're looking for an Urban place to reside.

 

[deadheadskier]

Thanks for the info Xwhaler. My wife and I are considering selling our condo at Mount Snow in a few years and buying a small house in the SE New Hampshire area. We are considering the same towns you looked at, we'll be sure to look at the entire area including Epping this year. The plan is to buy a place which will become our retirement home in 8-10 years. We'll probably be traveling alot and spending winters in Utah and Colorado and other western states so the distance to local skiing wouldn't mater too much. We ski but we are also into road cycling and sea kayaking too, NH and southern Maine are fantastic for that too.
We'll probably rent a house for a year or so to be certain before buying.

I would look at Newington for a place to retire on the NH seacoast. Lowest property taxes maybe in the state, yet right next door to Portsmouth and right on Great Bay for kayaking. Property values can be high in Newington, but once you're in, your yearly tax bill for the type of property you buy will be half that of anywhere else in the area.

 

[thetrailboss]

Yeah, stay off the mean streets of Barre and Rutland after dark. :lol:

Burlington has WAY more crime and drug problems than anywhere else in the state. Just because it's got a lot of money and is prettier than Barre and Rutland doesn't mean it's a safer place to live with fewer drug problems. Do people ever caution others about crime and drugs when they are moving to Burlington? No. Because those problems aside, it's a fine and very safe place to live. Same is true of anywhere in the state including Barre and Rutland, which again have far less crime than Btown, they just are more economically depressed, so one would assume the crime is worse.

I'm sorry, but I get a chuckle out of any suggestion of crime and drug problem considerations anywhere in the State of VT when people are discussing where others should consider residing in the state.

Cambridge, MA looks like Juarez, Mexico compared to anywhere in VT in terms of crime and drugs. Most would say it's a fantastic place to live if you're looking for an Urban place to reside.

Yeah, relatively speaking....

 

[Mpdsnowman]

When I was a kid I spent a lot of time in Rutland. I had family there..lol most either worked for Killington or GE lol....Gritty is a good term for it but I got to tell ya, I had been gone from there for years and started going back about 7 years ago and it really changed.....apparently when GE went down so did it...

One thing I will say is if you do like green mountains, vermont is your state. I think you could probably find issues in any city or state for that matter but overall I think Vermont is a cool place. Outside the cities are great if you like outdoors...Ive hiked it since I was a kid

 

[gladerider]

very interesting thread indeed, for a flatlander in NNJ looking for an excuse to get out...

 

[mlctvt]

I would look at Newington for a place to retire on the NH seacoast. Lowest property taxes maybe in the state, yet right next door to Portsmouth and right on Great Bay for kayaking. Property values can be high in Newington, but once you're in, your yearly tax bill for the type of property you buy will be half that of anywhere else in the area.

I guess I'm deviating for the original thread a but I hadn't considered Newington becuase from a map view it doesn't look that conducive to good Road cycling since it's surrounded by water. How are the bridges for cycling? Can you ride over them without getting killed?

 

[thetrailboss]

When I was a kid I spent a lot of time in Rutland. I had family there..lol most either worked for Killington or GE lol....Gritty is a good term for it but I got to tell ya, I had been gone from there for years and started going back about 7 years ago and it really changed.....apparently when GE went down so did it...

One thing I will say is if you do like green mountains, vermont is your state. I think you could probably find issues in any city or state for that matter but overall I think Vermont is a cool place. Outside the cities are great if you like outdoors...Ive hiked it since I was a kid

Looks like Burke Mountain.

 

[nelsapbm]

We have had the exact different experience than thetrailboss and his wife, but let me say...WE ARE LUCKY. Good paying jobs are really hard to come by here. My husband fell into a GREAT job after UVM (software engineering) that he is still at. We were able to build a brand new home on 5 acres for well under $300K 25 minutes to Burlington (10 years ago), I can afford to be a stay at home parent, etc. But again, we are LUCKY. That said, if he were to ever lose his job, there is maybe one other place in Burlington that he could work at (assuming they have openings) - otherwise he'd have to look for telecommuting jobs or we'd have to move.
The vast majority of my friends from high school left the state (I grew up in StJ). Some are coming back now that they have families and are able to secure good jobs through family, friends etc. I imagine it would be hard to move here as an unknown and find a good job right away.
Another thing-every other person here is a contractor it seems. Seriously. They either do it as their full time job or as a second job (many people have second jobs in able to afford to live here). Again..unless you know someone in the industry you may have a hard time breaking in.
So..yes. Salaries are low compared to neighboring states (I took a 12-15k paycut for essentially the same job when I moved back up here from Boston). Housing costs are high in relation to salaries. Heating costs are high. Taxes as have been mentioned.
That said, we absolutely love living here, high cost of living and all.
So....if we haven't scared you off yet - areas to consider. I would avoid the towns immediately adjacent to ski resorts. You're looking at high real estate there. I highly recommend the Burlington area. This is the largest part of the state population wise where most building/construction happens. The further from Burlington you get the cheaper real estate is. I know Monkton, Bristol, Vergennes, Starksboro etc south of Burlington has more reasonable real estate than Burlington and its immediate burbs. Easy drive over 17 to MRG or 'Bush. Bolton is also close. Same thing if you go north (Milton, Fairfax etc -closer to Jay, Smuggs). My assessment of St. Johnsbury (and really the NEK as a whole) is the same as Riv (and I grew up there LOL). I don't recommend unless you have kids so they can go to St. J Academy or LI.
Also...if you decide to do this and choose a more rural area be sure there is high speed internet access for your wife to telecommute-not all areas have it here.

 

[Edd]

Can you guys (Deadhead and Edd especially) recommend any towns to check out in the southern NH area?

I guess I'm deviating for the original thread a but I hadn't considered Newington becuase from a map view it doesn't look that conducive to good Road cycling since it's surrounded by water. How are the bridges for cycling? Can you ride over them without getting killed?

Bene, I think Xwhaler covered a good portion of the area but the answer to your question depends on what you're into. You mentioned a small town vibe and there are a number of small towns with a different feel around here. If you want to actually live in a downtown area I'd check out Portsmouth (upscale yuppie-ish and the largest downtown area with like a thousand restaurants), Exeter (far smaller but also upscale and busy...could never get a handle on the nightlife there), Newmarket (I'm a total Newmarket fanboy so take this with a grain of salt but a perfect mix of upscale, hippie, working class and college students...very chill), and Dover (sort of a larger version of Newmarket with fewer hippies and more crime). The order I listed them is how expensive they are to live in starting with the highest. All of the towns I listed have waterfront property. It's not obvious at first but water is everywhere here. And I mentioned crime but seriously the crime here is like a joke compared to places like Manchester just 30 miles away.

If the proximity of ski areas matters generally speaking, living in Southern NH around 95 it's easier to get to Maine and living around 93 makes VT more convienient. Someone correct me if I'm wrong but I'm pretty sure I've gotten to Killington from Newmarket in 2.5 hours, which would make it equidistant to SR in Maine. VT resorts like Mt Snow in the south are a PITA to get to, in the 3.5 hour range and the drive sucks. Places like Jay and Stowe are about the same time and a simpler drive.

Sorry mlctvt, I don't bike so I couldn't tell you much about the bridges.

 

[riverc0il]

Edd is right on the money when saying if you want to ski VT and live in NH, you are better situated along 93 than I95/R16. That east/west drive adds a lot of time... actually faster to get to much of VT from suburban MA than coastal NH. Concord area has a good mix of being close to some small bumps (Pat's, Gunstock, Crotched, etc.), about an hour from Ski93 areas, and an hour from WRJ where many VT areas are only another hour or so beyond that. From up here, I can hit almost anywhere in VT within 2-2.5 hours... not bad.

 

[deadheadskier]

Newmarket (I'm a total Newmarket fanboy so take this with a grain of salt but a perfect mix of upscale, hippie, working class and college students...very chill),

yup, love our little town equally

http://www.bostonglobe.com/lifestyl...ing-options/VRJqrF3xPp3xNoF0Cdre6I/story.html

 

[tekweezle]

I've always thought of retiring to ski country and my thoughts have centered around a condo in vt-Killington, pico or Mt snow, or maybe new Hampshire.

About the only thing I've been considering was condo maintenance costs because that would represent most of my ongoing carrying costs. Effectively, maintenance costs equate to rent. I think costs at condos I've looked at average out to around 490$. But at least the prices for condos have come down realistically.

Is there anything else I should be considering?

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