Relative difficulty of ski areas?

[RISkier]

I'd like to hear some thoughts on the relative difficulty of NE ski areas -- more specifically, the relative rating of trails. I've only skied a small number of areas, but I'll offer my impressions. I thought the blues at Stowe were way steeper than the blues I've been on at places like Gunstock, Sunapee, Pats, Ragged, Bretton Woods, Wachusett. Some blues at Wa Wa seem less steep than some of the greens at Bretton Woods -- which has the reputation as being very easy. Indeed, in my perception, Gondolier at Stowe was steeper than most of the Black's I've been on at other places. Always hear places like Stratton and Okemo described as relatively easy terrain, while places like Cannon, Jay, MRG, Sugarloaf as being tough mountains. How do different mountains compare in terms of how they rate slopes?

 

[skijay]

The circle, square, diamond trail level system applies to each mountain. In other words the green circle (easiest) means that this trail is the easiest to ski for the mountain that you are at.

For an example the Lucifer's Leap at Butternut is rated a diamond (most difficult trail at this mountain). If you go to Mont Orford and ski the "Trois Ruisseaux" which is rated most difficult trail at Orford, you will soon realize that this trail is a lot steeper, bumpier, more uneveness than Lucifer's Leap.

So the trail difficulty system applies to each mountain. Just because you can ski an expert run at one mountain does not mean you may be able to ski one at another mountain with the same amount of ease. I always tell my friends, if you can ski the "more difficult" (blue square) trails at Orford, you can ski the diamond trails at Butternut.

 

[ChileMass]

Very true, skijay - Trois Ruisseaux at Orford (or Magnum or Maxi) are true blacks, and the blues there (like Grande Coulee) are blues of the highest order. At some hills you will sometimes see a blue square with a black diamond inside it which (I believe) denotes an "advanced" trail rather than experts only.

I heard somewhere that each hill rates its own trails aginst each other, not against an independent scale. That's why Wawa's blues and blacks don't compare with Stowe or Killington, etc. Maybe Rick, Laurie or Lise (one of the pros that contribute here) can clear that up......

BTW - I think Stowe has the toughest blacks in the East, and Orford may have the toughest blues I've seen. Killington and Sugarloaf have to rate up there pretty high, too due to the amount of terrain.

 

[threecy]

There is a potential for a terrible legal blowup if each area was to have one rating system

 

[severine]

I have to agree with what was posted above. While I was able to start on black diamond trails back home by the end of the season, a black diamond on Mohawk or Southington is still pretty close to some of the greens/blues at Sugarbush and Mad River Glen. It would be difficult to compare as each mountain is very different.

 

[riverc0il]

no legal blowout in my opinion, the system works just fine. unless we want to have 10+ different rating codes and uniform a system (no thanks).

as mentioned previously, the ratings for each mountain are only relative to that mountain, not other mountains. one must take this into account when skiing a new mountain. if you are not an all mountain skier, than you should start with a green circle at a new mountain, then move to a blue square, and evaluatute how the mountain fares to your skills. definitely ask a ski patrol or ski instructor what they would recommend given your background. then ski (or don't ski) the diamonds once you've realized where the mountain ratings compare to your ability.

diamonds at most "bigger" ski areas involve pitches of 30 degrees or more with natural snow conditions, bumps, trees, and occasionally mandatory air. one must realize that the expert terrain at smaller local "bump" hills are not the same as the larger mountain's legitimate "expert only" terrain.

the most poinent example i can think of is cannon's "tramline" trail which is rated a single diamond. it's one of the steepest and most extreme (on piste) trails in new england and didn't even open this year due to lack of natural snow to cover the rocks and mandatory air. but you've gotta evaluate the trail against the mountain you're skiing and analyzing the trail from the lift compared to other trails doesn't hurt either. hey, if the trail is a 35 degree pitch with bumps, it doesn't matter what the trail rating is, you can either ski it or you can't. i've never looked over the initial pitch of a trail and not gotten a good idea of what the entire trail would be like based on the first 100 foot vertical drop. regardless of what the trail rating is, one must use common sense and known one's own ability compared to what a trail looks like. that's not the resorts' responsibility.

 

[jimme]

riv- great stuff! Said it very well.

There would probably be some legal issues if the industry tried to standardize on ratings. I can hear it now. "It was rated Blue, and at Such And Such Area I ski Blue rated trails with ease, but this one seemed steeper halfway down causing me to fall. It's all your fault because you didn't properly rate the trail."

I now appreciate the fact that the rating is relative to the mountain rather than an overall standard. It helps differentiate mountains. I always like MRG's challenge "Ski It If You Can." And like riv said, at a new mountian start with easier trails to get a feel for the mountain.

Also I like the Double Black trail rating, and I've even seen Red Triangle rated trails. From it's description Cannon's Tramline could use the Red Triangle, or Double Black. Those ratings indicate that it is truly difficult by any mountain's standard. For me it basically means. . .don't go Jimme, someday maybe, but you just ain't that good yet.* I know some trails at Gore even warn that if you fall, injury is certain, possibly death. I appreciate and yield to those warnings. Just like beginners have their own space, true experts should have theirs as well.

The snowplow should be used only on Green rated trails or to stop. It's irritating to see kids with their parents, or somebody's buddy trying to ski difficult trails snowplowing. There is a differance between improving one's skills and skiing over your head.

Jimme

*Jericho at Jiminy is an exception on a good snow day. If there's any ice, then I stay away.

 

[RISkier]

Perhaps I ask questions in a convoluted way. What I was most interested in was a discussion of how trail ratings compare between areas. What areas have relatively easy (greens, blues, blacks) and which areas have relatively hard (greens, blues, blacks). Where are the blue square trails "dark blue" and where do they tend to have a "greenish" cast? Where are the blacks kick butt, and where are they really intermediate level trails marked as black?

 

[GadgetRick]

Correct...

You are correct, each mountain rates its trails based on the terrain at that mountain. I won't go into it since it's been very nicely covered here.

I've always found it good practice to ask a patroller (if you have the chance) about the mountain when you first try one. It's a good way to learn more about the mountain. We're usually more than happy to brag about the mountain we patrol!

It's also good since the patrollers know what trails are skiing well that day. As you know, conditions change from day to day (and hour to hour). The patrollers usually know where to hang out and where to stay away. Give it a try sometime...

 

[Greg]

Jiminy Peak has an interesting approach where they extend the system with "More Difficult (High Intermediate)" that is represented by a black diamond within a blue square, as well as "More Difficult (Low Intermediate)" which is represented by a green circle within a blue square. I think some of these trails like North Glade and Ace of Spades earn their classification because half of the trail is groomed, while half is allowed to bump up. I'm guessing others earn their classification based on variances in pitch as you ski the trail. Interesting approach. Anyone else know of any other mountains that have adopted this intermediary classifications?

 

[threecy]

Exactly what I meant, if there is one system, there is a terrible legal vulnerability. There is no way to have an industry wide system per se, as trail pitches and surface conditions change by the minute - a snowmaking whale can create an extreme pitch, and one could try to sue saying the trail was labelled intermediate but was not of the same pitch as...its a mess.

Keep it the way it is.

 

[57stevey]

Just like beginners have their own space, true experts should have theirs as well.

The snowplow should be used only on Green rated trails or to stop. .

Generally I agree with what I think you mean, but the fact is that at many areas, once novices graduate from the bunny hill and become beginners, they DO NOT have their own space, but have to contend with "experts" (so-called or actual) flying along and paying varying degrees of attention.

Next year, my daughter will be ready to try Tramway or maybe Gary's (moderate blues at Cannon.) If by some chance she tires, or gets spooked, or whatever, I fully hope and expect her to use a snowplow, or whatever else she chooses in her arsenal, to stay safe and in control.

 

[riverc0il]

RISkier, most ski areas over 1500 foot elevation usually have expert terrain that is substantially tougher than other mountains of the same rating. two mountains specifically that come to mind are Cannon NH and Mad River Glen VT since neither uses a double black rating and both have some very extreme single black diamond runs that challenge even the best skiers. while i believe the double black diamond rating is usually hype (see sunday river who groom most of their so called double blacks *rolls eyes*), i think special warning designation should be used for trails like kinsman glade and tramline at cannon or say paradise at MRG. then again, when tramline actually opened last year... they had about a dozen bamboo poles with warning signs at the enterance saying "experts only" "no fall zone" "mandatory air" etc. usually when a trail is thin or nasty, warning signs get put up.

interesting story: polly's folly this year at cannon was legendary most days in skied there (total of 9). most season, it had a rope accross it with a narrow entrance around some nasty stuff and a sign saying thin cover. so what happened? virtually no one skied it except expert skiers. it was no worse than the bumps on zoomer or avalanche most days, but those warning deterred most skiers and the best snow on the mountain was on polly's since no one was skiing it!

i've seen one too many yahoos skiing beyond their ability. but we've all been there right? i know i've made a few bad choices and got in over my head when i didn't have what it took to cut it. but i learned from those experiences and they pushed me to be a better skier, to master the mountain. so i have no problem with someone trying a trail that is beyond their skill level. i do have a problem with skiers or boarders side slipping or skidding down an entire trail because it's too steep.

i think what happens is a lot of skiers learn at their local bradford or nashoba ski bumps in MA, RI, and CT... which have black diamond slopes comparable to an easy blue square at most hills. so they naturally assume something they really shouldn't. it does concern me the number of times i saw people snow plowing down trails like middle hardscrabble at cannon this year. i'm wondering what ski areas can do to keep people from getting in over their heads like that?

 

[57stevey]

How about starting with affordable lessons for the well-meaning, and empowerment of patrollers to deal with the yahoos?

 

[GadgetRick]

People will be people...

I see people, "skiing over their head," all of the time. I can't say it's a totally horrible thing as the only way we learn is to push ourselves. If we always hang out in the areas we KNOW we can ski, how can we get better?

With that said, people will be people. Skiing is a bit of an egotistical sport. Many people are ashamed to say, "Yeah, we were at the mountain and skied ALL of the greens!" Doesn't sound as exciting as skiing all of the double black diamonds, does it? Unfortunately, this ego tends to get people hurt--sometimes badly. We had one instance of someone on their first ever ski trip. He was with friends who were better skiers. This person got out of control on one of our blues and wound up meeting a tree. This person came very close to being killed but thanks to the fine work of one of our patrollers he made it and is actually doing quite well now. The problem here is we all like to razz our friends into doing things they may not be qualified for. This creates the macho attitude towards skiing. If someone says they're not comfortable with a trail, don't try and talk them into doing it. You (both) may regret it.

You are also correct in talking about people who can make it down a trail but do so while scraping all of the snow off the slope. I always suggest people learn how to carve on an easier trail rather than on a harder trail. If you want to learn how to carve it's MUCH more difficult to do it on an extremely steep trail. If you're fine skidding your turns then have at it. Just don't feel like you're the best skier on the mountain because you can skid down the mountain.

Sorry for the ramble here. Not feeling well and I'm tired. Hope I made some sense. :-?

 

[eatskisleep]

Its like this at Jay and Wildcat especially, don't forget Mad River Glen.
On Wildcat's trail map it has a warning saying that the trails are rated relitive to the mountain and if in doubt about ask.

 

[goldsbar]

That's a tough question at there are many factors involved. Take Plattekill, for example. Average steepness but much of their coverage is natural so you always have to be on the lookout for rocks, etc.

Whiteface - steeper than average but usually mostly groomed from what I remember. I'd say harder than average.

Sugarbush - average except for Castlerock (harder).

MRG (only 1/2 day experience here) - People like to say it's hard but the blues aren't really that hard. The blacks can be harder thanks to the natural conditions. BTW, I don't think the sign for Paradise is necessary - sure, it's a hard trail. But, it's not that hard.

Mt Snow - Easy. No question about it. Many of their blues are tough greens at other areas. Their blacks are blacks only when they're bumped. that double black is pretty real, though.

About this mandatory air thing. I've never been to Cannon but I've heard this falsely mentioned on other trails many times. The ONLY mandatory air trail I've ever seen is Coulbert's Coulier (sp?) at Jackson Hole. Grand Targhee (generally easy) had a cliffband running accross their double diamond but you could pick through it at certain spots.

 

[Greg]

Bump

 

[RISkier]

Well, I guess I started this post, though it seems long ago and far far away. Clearly, the relative ratings at different areas varies greatly from area to area. Main Street at Spruce peak at Stowe has one shot that is probably as steep as anything on Goosebumps at Sunapee (double black). It's not a long pitch but I've heard several Stowe instructors say they think it should be marked black. And I've seen quite a few folks standing at the top wondering if they can make it down. When I originally posted this I sucked (well, I still do but not as much) and I really think it's important that areas have funs that are marked in such a way that folks new to skiing feel comfortable. Trails marked green should be pretty darn easy. Personally, I really like a blue and double blue designation where blues are just a step up from relatively easy greens, and double blue is something a decent intermediate is at least OK getting down.

 

[kbroderick]

I think the degree of the slope of the trails is different out west than in the east. The snow is different there, I hear. That can play into the relative difficulty on the trails.

Having been out West between the original posting of this thread and its resurrection, I can vouch for that. It took me a few days to get used to skiing stuff that maintains more pitch than I'm used to skiing for more vertical feet than I'm used to skiing, but the snow conditions and lack of trees just make it a whole different ball game. Either that, or it just felt easier to not be ducking branches all the time.

see sunday river who groom most of their so called double blacks *rolls eyes*

As you pointed out in the same paragraph, it's a question of relative difficulty. And White Heat, Shockwave, Top Gun, and Vortex all have either (a) more interesting terrain (Shockwave, Top Gun, Black Hole) and/or (b) more continuous pitch (Vortex, White Heat) compared to single blacks at the same mountain. And if you compare (for example) Tempest to White Heat (both have similar characteristics -- mostly down the fall line with subtle but nasty off-camber tendencies due in part to snowmaking and grooming, neither has any turns, and both end up with relatively flat run outs), Tempest is clearly a significantly easier trail than White Heat. Or, to put it another way: think about riding an inner tube down each trail of a different rating system. I think that puts the increased pitch into perspective

And trail ratings do sometimes needs to change. To use an example from Sunday River--Dreammaker and Quantum Leap used to be blue squares. Anyone who has skied both trails (which are off the same peak) will recognize why that's not such a good thing; the mountain did, as well, and Quantum Leap was resigned as a black within 24 hours of opening. I don't recall if Dreammaker was demoted to green circle prior to that or afterwards.