RFID tickets

[dropKickMurphy]

Blue Hills, Mass. went RFID this year.

Damn. I was hoping they were using that money to install a new 150 passenger tram to the summit.

 

[tomcat]

I'm heading to Jay in a few weeks just for a day, on a two for one coupon. I never had to deal with an RFID. Does Jay charge for the RFID? Is this what you get at the ticket counter now instead of an actual ticket? Having to pay a fee seems like an insult with the price of a walk up ticket most places. I don't ski the any one area more than a few times a year so I agree with the people complaining about the charge. Even though you have to go back into line I like the Stowe idea about getting a refund.

 

[billski]

I'm heading to Jay in a few weeks just for a day, on a two for one coupon. I never had to deal with an RFID. Does Jay charge for the RFID? Is this what you get at the ticket counter now instead of an actual ticket? Having to pay a fee seems like an insult with the price of a walk up ticket most places. I don't ski the any one area more than a few times a year so I agree with the people complaining about the charge. Even though you have to go back into line I like the Stowe idea about getting a refund.

http://www.jaypeakresort.com/#/skiing_riding/rates_hours/rfid/

 

[Geoff]

If it was to automate ticket checking why the need for it to be storing data to a marketing data base? They're taking your every scan and determining:

what days of the week you like to ski
what type of weather you like to ski in
which lifts you most frequently ride
if you've taken a lesson
if you've visited the mountain ski shop
what you purchased in the ski shop

I'm sure there is a lot more they're gathering but this short list serves as an example.



I'm not suggesting adding an employee, I'm suggesting they move the employee. At the bottom of the mountain no law has been broken. This in merely an attempt to steal services and violators are ejected from the line before committing a crime. At the top of the mountain, they are GUILTY.

I get my season pass scanned every time I go on the lift. The mountain doesn't need to install an RFID system to obtain all of that information. It's not like people pay with cash in 2012.

 

[drjeff]

Blue Hills, Mass. went RFID this year.

Well you gotta figure that with a good chunk of Blue Hill's patron so used to using RFID card as they're getting on the T that the same basic thing for getting on a chairlift would be no foreign concept to them

 

[billski]

Well you gotta figure that with a good chunk of Blue Hill's patron so used to using RFID card as they're getting on the T that the same basic thing for getting on a chairlift would be no foreign concept to them

I thought "Blue Hill" was T stop :razz:

 

[BenedictGomez]

The real reason for RFID is bundling services, attaching a credit card to the RFID card for other resort services, and using it as a loyalty card.

Dont forget the ancillary source of revenue to the mountain.

Even with the "Stowe return" policy, you better believe they're betting on the fact that a lot of people arent going to go through with the nuisance of getting that $5 per ticket back at the end of the day (especially with their clientele).

 

[riverc0il]

RFID saves labor. Every employee you don't have to pay goes right to your bottom line.

No, no it doesn't. At least at Jay, I see MORE employees at most RFID lifts not less. Maybe other ski areas are doing it differently. But from what I've seen at Jay, they have an RFID operator for all upper mountain lifts who's job is to monitor the turn styles.

In addition to the previous benefits I noted, the direct purchase from the web site is also a sales benefit. I got an insider view on RFID. From what I gathered, this is a sales tool first and foremost. They don't save labor because they have dedicated lifties watching the gates with the computer AND they need an IT person (or at least contract out IT related needs). They might prevent a few freebies from scamming a free ride. But at the end of the day, the sales are going to pay the bills. Maybe YOU don't associate your credit card with your season pass. But that doesn't mean the resort is doing what they are doing for YOU. Joe average family is taking advantage.

 

[deadheadskier]

Can't say I've noticed fewer employees at RFID resorts myself. Pretty much the same staffing at "normal" scanned ticket lifts. My experience is limited to Jay Peak and Stowe, but both of those areas weren't running less labor because of the RFID.

 

[steamboat1]

I get my season pass scanned every time I go on the lift. The mountain doesn't need to install an RFID system to obtain all of that information. It's not like people pay with cash in 2012.

Yes, and you can also use your season pass as a charge card the same way you could an RFID at most major areas.

 

[mlkrgr]

I'm heading to Jay in a few weeks just for a day, on a two for one coupon. I never had to deal with an RFID. Does Jay charge for the RFID? Is this what you get at the ticket counter now instead of an actual ticket? Having to pay a fee seems like an insult with the price of a walk up ticket most places. I don't ski the any one area more than a few times a year so I agree with the people complaining about the charge. Even though you have to go back into line I like the Stowe idea about getting a refund.

Only way to avoid it for what I know is to go with a group as far as Jay goes. Then again, you are given a card that does not have the ability to reload so if you go back on your own, you still pay the $5 fee. Most likely true with $teaux too.

 

[Cheese]

I get my season pass scanned every time I go on the lift. The mountain doesn't need to install an RFID system to obtain all of that information. It's not like people pay with cash in 2012.

I get my pass scanned at the entrance to Disney and they never trouble me again. You really can't see the difference between allowing access vs. collecting data about your daily habits at a resort?

 

[billski]

I have not been there this year, but last year, you could get a permanent card or a paper day-pass RFID card. Sounds like the time for a phone call (802) 988 9601. I always get my fastest answers that way.

Regarding labor-saving systems, start up costs are always highest for most technologies. You are an early adopter, by force or choice. As everyone gets in the groove, and optimize it to their operation, it will eventually result in shorter lines, more volume and less labor. For now, it's growing pains.

It's a lot like rotaries. Er, uh, maybe not so much

 

[BenedictGomez]

Regarding labor-saving systems, start up costs are always highest for most technologies.

True

You are an early adopter, by force or choice. As everyone gets in the groove, and optimize it to their operation, it will eventually result in shorter lines, more volume and less labor. For now, it's growing pains.

I still for the life of me do not understand this, regardless of how often it's said by the resorts implementing RFID, and by however many RFID believers in this thread.

1) The number of chairs on any given lift is static and not a variable.
2) The speed of chairs on any given lift is static and not a variable.
3) The number of patrons that flow through on X-day is given, and not variable.

So net/net, if the only "time saved" is in the flow of people onto the chairs (and even that's dicey IMO), that's an incremental positive at best, as once the chairs reach their full capacity "choke point", even that theoretical advantage is instantly eliminated.

So at the end of the day, I still believe (as I have from day one) that the entire point of RFID is:

1) Ancillary income to the resort
2) Decreased labor costs (eventually)
3) Increased data collection of consumer activities
4) Increased forward marketing capabilities

In other words, all benefits to the mountain, and not to the consumer, regardless of what we're told. I mean, "I can reload my ticket online?" Well big whoopti-do! Frankly, in my cheap skiing case, I'm far more likely to be using a BOGO or something that needs redemption at the window anyway. lol

 

[Skier4life]

I get my pass scanned at the entrance to Disney and they never trouble me again.

They need not trouble you further as they have all they need with the single swipe at the entrance gate when you first enter the resort.

I know it will be difficult due to topography and mountain terrain, but perhaps very soon ski resorts will start fencing and have just one entrance for a single swipe upon entrance. This is for obvious reasons far fetched due to costs which will inevitably come right back to the consumer in the long run and not to mention congestion which the RFID's were created to avoid.

RFID's are okay and IMO, I think it reasonable the resorts recoup some of the money they spend to make our skiing lives arguably more enjoyable/streamlined.

 

[Cheese]

In other words, all benefits to the mountain, and not to the consumer, regardless of what we're told.

+1

... and more profits for the holding companies as the results of these data allow them to forecast revenues ahead of time and therefore pay hourly employees "on demand" instead of daily or weekly. Great for corporate, tough on employees who count on a steady income.

 

[mlkrgr]

True



I still for the life of me do not understand this, regardless of how often it's said by the resorts implementing RFID, and by however many RFID believers in this thread.

1) The number of chairs on any given lift is static and not a variable.
2) The speed of chairs on any given lift is static and not a variable.
3) The number of patrons that flow through on X-day is given, and not variable.

So net/net, if the only "time saved" is in the flow of people onto the chairs (and even that's dicey IMO), that's an incremental positive at best, as once the chairs reach their full capacity "choke point", even that theoretical advantage is instantly eliminated.

So at the end of the day, I still believe (as I have from day one) that the entire point of RFID is:

1) Ancillary income to the resort
2) Decreased labor costs (eventually)
3) Increased data collection of consumer activities
4) Increased forward marketing capabilities

In other words, all benefits to the mountain, and not to the consumer, regardless of what we're told. I mean, "I can reload my ticket online?" Well big whoopti-do! Frankly, in my cheap skiing case, I'm far more likely to be using a BOGO or something that needs redemption at the window anyway. lol

They try to convince you to buy lift tix online for the expectation that not everyone will show that buys a ticket which goes for almost all areas. This is why ski resorts love liftopia as they can attract more price sensitive consumers that way as well as still charging rack rate for those who need a ticket on the spot. And it's the same reason why most ski buses will collect payment from you and most (but not all) have a policy that the trip is nonrefundable once purchased (with one refunding the lift ticket price only in the case of a no show minus a $15 service charge in credit for another trip which ends up being a mere $20 in most cases which is 20-30% of the cost of the trip and the other only refunds in full with a 3 day notice).

Since most deals require an online purchase whether it'd be a bus group, liftopia, etc. I try to book the closest possible to the date without being charged more (in case of a time sensitive special such as Nacski's early booking rates which is usually good until 2 or 3 days before the trip or a liftopia deal in short supply).

I volunteer for a group (that is not skiing related) and we encourage people to buy ahead of time. 10% of those who purchase and pay for a meeting online do not show so it ends up just flowing to the bottom line even though they are given the option to pay at the door (in which case if they say they'll pay at the door and don't show the group never sees the money).

 

[billski]

The best way to solve this is at the bar. Perhaps at the AZ summit. At the end of the weekend, we can open a ski resort consultancy and sell them our advice for $10K a pop.

 

[Abubob]

Can't say I've noticed fewer employees at RFID resorts myself. Pretty much the same staffing at "normal" scanned ticket lifts. My experience is limited to Jay Peak and Stowe, but both of those areas weren't running less labor because of the RFID.

Ditto. At Ragged they've got someone two people by the scanners (they've got scanners to the left and right of the six pack), another to help load and make sure there's six per chair when they're busy (when they're not busy they just stand there and smile occasionally) plus another poor sap that has to stand outside by the kill switch. By the triple its the same as before just one to help load and stand by the kill switch.

 

[billski]

Bousquet, one of the smallest areas in New England is getting into the RFID business. Cost of entry must be pretty low.
http://www.telegram.com/article/20120216/COLUMN58/102169967

BTW, I skied at Jay a week ago and spent time talking to the lifite, holding his $5000 touch controller. He can open, close or lock any gate with a poke from the pen.