Saddleback

[raisingarizona]

Good terrain and good snow preservation? sounds like a killer spot for a uphill access areas to me. Heck, in some way it makes it more attractive than if it had ski lifts imho. More pow for the willing and less hacks hacking it all up.

You could still go to Sugarloaf to ride the lifts and eat hamburgers all day long!

 

[bdfreetuna]

I guess that is the dream for all the "secret stash" hardasses. Just let all the ski areas close, in 20 years the whole country will be your secret stash and have some nice glades growing in as well.

Pardon the rest of us for not choosing to drive 6 hours to ski 2 runs because we had to hike the damn mountain.

Look at King Ridge. Closed but they built some homes up top (the mountain was a ski-down from the top setup). I bet those folks get a couple good runs in each year, totally untracked pow. Ideal situation for all resorts!

 

[raisingarizona]

Don't get so touched dude. Enjoying a nice skin track for untracked snow has little to do with be a "secret stash" hard ass. It's just a different experience that a lot of people enjoy. It might not be yours and that's ok but I think it would be a cool addition for locals and people making their way to Sugarloaf. And with the upper mountain being only 900 vert or so a regular touring skier in relatively decent shape can get in a whole lot more than 2 laps in one day. Sugarloaf will still serve all the burgers you can eat.

 

[Cat in January]

I don't think the state pays the road. Pretty sure that is maintained by the local town (plantation). One reason why the non-profit seemed problematic up there. Road is in bad shape and is real long. If you remove the tax generated by the mountain puts a lot more burden on the residents of Dallas Plantation.

At least if it stayed open as a tour only place it would still be a ski area.

 

[raisingarizona]

I don't think the state pays the road. Pretty sure that is maintained by the local town (plantation). One reason why the non-profit seemed problematic up there. Road is in bad shape and is real long. If you remove the tax generated by the mountain puts a lot more burden on the residents of Dallas Plantation.

At least if it stayed open as a tour only place it would still be a ski area.

And with very little overhead. Get volunteers to clear the best runs and stack fire wood for a byob warming hut and boom! Done.

Or keep the t bar for limited access and maybe one groomer. Either way I love the super simple bare bones ski area model. That unique experience could be exactly what would get some people there.

 

[bdfreetuna]

Bare bones ski area model is the right model for Saddelback. Low overhead but remaining an Alpine Skiing area with limited lodging. But our ideas of "bare bones" are pretty different from what I can tell. Smuggs is "bare bones" but properly operated in my view.

This is why the excuse it could not stay open without upgrading the Double chair never resonated with me. How often did this chair even have a significant line? And when it did have a line, probably less than the average Smuggs lift line.

I'm sure you can "tour only" Saddleback any time you want as long as it's closed. How many people do this? Few. How many will in the future. Few?

Good for you if you're happy to do this but sadly 99%+ of us will never return to Saddleback or Rangeley again unless lifts spin. Just reality.

Don't get your repeated burger reference.. are you a vegan? I lost 30lbs since I started eating beef again.. true story

If they want to go Mount Bohemia route I'll be there but I'm not hiking in the winter nor will the vast majority of potential customers. Not enough time for hamburgers right

 

[Jully]

Resort rankings are somewhat subjective. From your list I rank Saddleback above Whiteface, Sunday River, Smuggs... for different reasons.

I give it a tie with Mad River Glen. I personally prefer it to Sugarbush and Stowe. Cannon and Wildcat I can't speak for very well.

Sugarloaf might be #1 in the East from my point of view -- but I can't see myself ever visiting Sugarloaf without Saddleback as well (assuming open). It's that good. In fact the closure of Saddleback has made it a lot less likely I will go to Sugarloaf any time soon.

If you want to say Top 15, I'm fine with that. No top 15 resort should be shuttered without the ski community doing whatever they can to prevent.

My position is weak. All I can do is express that Saddleback is, in my experience, on the level of something like Smuggs + MRG. Imagine how upset we'd be if either of those areas had to close.

I'm fine with states funding, subsidizing or even running ski resorts. I'm confused why socialist Vermont doesn't do this when it's their only cash cow and all their coin calves depend on it. These are national recreational treasures.

+1 on all accounts. Absolutely tragic. I would also support Maine subsidizing Saddleback. For me it comes down to what does the state value the economic impact Saddleback had on all of Franklin County and in the immediate Rangeley area. Governments help out impoverished areas all the time with subsidies and tax breaks. I think it just feels a little weird because it is skiing, which is a recreational activity versus fishing, farming, or car manufacturing. It still has just as much meaning to the local area.

I get you have to draw a line somewhere and I definitely get that money, especially for a massive, rural state like Maine is quite limited, but I personally would include Saddleback and recreation as a means to help a struggling area in the good column rather than the wasteful.

YMMV

 

[Jully]

Bare bones ski area model is the right model for Saddelback. Low overhead but remaining an Alpine Skiing area with limited lodging.

This is why the excuse it could not stay open without upgrading the Double chair never resonated with me. How often did this chair even have a significant line? And when it did have a line, probably less than the average Smuggs lift line.

I absolutely hated that they chose that as the line in the sand to draw. It confused and angered many and also caused a ton of misinformation about the double to fly around. So many people (and semi-reputable ski news outlets) said the double was broken.

 

[thetrailboss]

https://www.pressherald.com/2018/06...ght-to-buy-saddleback-plans-to-make-an-offer/

Monsour jailed for fraud? That's a big surprise!

[Said nobody]

As a Burke homer, I completely empathize with Saddleback folks. It sucks!

 

[gregnye]

https://www.pressherald.com/2018/06...ght-to-buy-saddleback-plans-to-make-an-offer/

What a surprise!!! (not really)

At one point, I remember reading that this guy claimed "getting the ski area back into operation wasn't the first priority", but rather just abusing the EB5 system and making hotels first.

Source:
https://bangordailynews.com/2018/03...ern-wants-the-resort-for-its-immigrant-visas/

It's apparently clear (at least from this and Jay Peak) that owners see buying a ski area as just a method to abuse the EB5 program. Which is too bad, because the EB5 program has potential to work, and has worked in other scenarios not relating to ski areas at all.

Now I've never been to saddleback, but I've always wanted to go. Technically I could just hike up--but I'd rather see them succeed. For those who claim "whatever I'll just hike up"--may I remind you that you have Mount Washington which is 100 times better than any manmade mountain for touring.

The only way I could see this mountain opening again is if there was a group of locals (like Mad River and Magic) who got funds together to start it up. Or if the state of Maine ran it like NH runs Cannon (which I'd be ok with--but I'm sure the government-hating people of Maine would object to).

 

[gregnye]

Don't get so touched dude. Enjoying a nice skin track for untracked snow has little to do with be a "secret stash" hard ass. It's just a different experience that a lot of people enjoy. It might not be yours and that's ok but I think it would be a cool addition for locals and people making their way to Sugarloaf. And with the upper mountain being only 900 vert or so a regular touring skier in relatively decent shape can get in a whole lot more than 2 laps in one day. Sugarloaf will still serve all the burgers you can eat.

I have an alpine touring setup and I don't understand the appeal of hiking up ski areas (even abandoned ones). The point of touring is for it to be all natural. You're skiing a cut trail and looking at abandoned lifts. I've tried it and it's creepy and not that good.

Mount Washington > hiking up any resort

And those that want non-avalanche hikeable ski terrain go to the Chic Chocs in quebec.

So the argument to make it a hike only resort is dumb. No one in the mind is going to drive past mt. Washington to Maine just to ski this. It's gotta be lift served to get the people there.

 

[raisingarizona]

I have an alpine touring setup and I don't understand the appeal of hiking up ski areas (even abandoned ones). The point of touring is for it to be all natural. You're skiing a cut trail and looking at abandoned lifts. I've tried it and it's creepy and not that good.

Mount Washington > hiking up any resort

So the argument to make it a hike only resort is dumb. No one in the mind is going to drive past mt. Washington to Maine just to ski this. It's gotta be lift served to get the people there.

Really? I've always felt that the attraction was harvesting powder turns and Mount Washington is often WAY too dangerous and complicated for the average east coast, urban weekend warrior type skier, especially in mid winter conditions.

The uphill market segment is growing. It's huge here in Flagstaff. You guys might be a little out of touch with overall ski business trends.

But yeah, it's totally dumb. Tell that to the people already enjoying such areas. Mountain town people love hearing the overly confident opinions of weekend warrior city folks.

 

[raisingarizona]

I love the idea of a T-bar area with some managed hike to skiing that preserves powder skiing for the willing. That would be a special experience that a lot of people would appreciate and would be relatively inexpensive to maintain.

Is powder skiing dumb? I didn't know that.

And Smuggs is a resort with crappy old chairs. It's still a big resort that costs a lot of money to maintain.

 

[gregnye]

Really? I've always felt that the attraction was harvesting powder turns and Mount Washington is often WAY too dangerous and complicated for the average east coast, urban weekend warrior type skier.

The uphill market segment is growing. It's huge here in Flagstaff. You guys might be a little out of touch with overall ski business trends.

I'm pretty new to the AT scene (I've only been doing it for 2 years) so technically I could be considered part of the people who decided to do it since it became "cool".

Interesting to see how the AT scene is different out west. Around here everyone I know who tours heads up to Mt. Washington. And the parking there is very crowded. Meanwhile the cut trails like Mt Moosilauke carriage road don't have as many people. I guess it's because on the east the only above treeline skiing is Mt. Washington.

I really want to move out west so that I can go above treeline on a mountain that isn't so windy. But until then it's Washington.

Now someone told me that saddleback did have a tiny section above treeline (above the ski area). Is this right? If so maybe it could become a destination. People on the east want to be above the trees.

 

[ironhippy]

And those that want non-avalanche hikeable ski terrain go to the Chic Chocs in quebec.

Where? All the hikeable ski terrain I've seen in the Chic Chocs is avalanche terrain...

https://avalanchequebec.ca/conditions-chic-chocs


I'd love to spend a weekend touring at Saddleback, but I'm odd.

 

[raisingarizona]

Once you have a ton of time and experience with touring I've personally found that it's snow quality that I'm looking for so often during and after a windy storm event you head for protected areas and trees.

Ya, it's far but in a way that could be used for marketing the place as that stash where you can get powder turns all day long. Maybe not but I like the idea of it.

Isn't increasing crowding becoming an issue out there like every where else?

 

[raisingarizona]

And again, no one is talking about this being "cool" or being "rad stash guy" or whatever else has been posted in here. Why are so many right coasters concerned with this image aspect of skiing? It's just weird.

I'd rather go where there is hardly anyone there anyways.

 

[Cat in January]

When Sunday River's lift tower toppled over, the State of Maine required either the engineering plans for the lift installation or to have the base dug up for a visual inspection. That doomed the Rangely lift. Being a slow 2 seater, it was the bottleneck on the mountain. To increase paying customers it had to be replaced. The way Saddleback went about it was a PR nightmare.

Lots of Winter touring days Mount Washington is not the place to go-besides Avalanche, Wind and icy conditions are factors that dictate that.

Have not been skiing in Murdochville, but I think that has no avy concerns. If you are in the Parc you need to be avy aware.

Ski mountains have been shuttering in the NE for a long time. Saddleback is just the largest. Would have shuttered a long time ago if the Berry's had not invested a large piece of their inherited fortune.

 

[BenedictGomez]

There is a lot more going on at the mountain. Check out this website and try not laugh reading the opening page... http://living.powdermountain.com

Laughter isn't my first impulse, it's a sense of creepiness. It basically reads like a far-left religious cult (sans religion) being run by a few con men. It's not going to end well. It will last as long as the R.P.T. (Rich Person's Toy) money holds out, but not all R.P.T. is created equally, and this R.P.T. is of the especially vulnerable & capricious kind.

 

[bdfreetuna]

And again, no one is talking about this being "cool" or being "rad stash guy" or whatever else has been posted in here. Why are so many right coasters concerned with this image aspect of skiing? It's just weird.

Don't be so touched, dude.