Saddleback

[ironhippy]

Well that sounds super cas, I wonder what a heli ride out of there costs?

The only way you're getting a heli ride in/out of baxter is if it's a rescue/evac and that aint gonna be cheap.

https://www.tetongravity.com/forums/showthread.php/276538-TR-Song-of-Katahdin
(some familiar names there )

Baxter state park prides itself on being inaccessible and wild, especially in the winter. You need to submit a resume in order to even be allowed to enter the park, then there's the whole 15 mile approach before you even get to the base of the mountain, etc. etc.

 

[raisingarizona]

The only way you're getting a heli ride in/out of baxter is if it's a rescue/evac and that aint gonna be cheap.

https://www.tetongravity.com/forums/showthread.php/276538-TR-Song-of-Katahdin
(some familiar names there )

Baxter state park prides itself on being inaccessible and wild, especially in the winter. You need to submit a resume in order to even be allowed to enter the park, then there's the whole 15 mile approach before you even get to the base of the mountain, etc. etc.

Yes, my sarcastic question was an effort to point out that a lot of inexperienced folks would likely need an evac if they attempted skiing back in there since it’s so far from being cas (casual). I have 22 years of back country skiing experience and I can tell you, I wouldn’t take an expedition back in there lightly. A wrong move out there could quickly turn fatal, that place looks pretty serious to me.

 

[Not Sure]

I'm a relative newb when it comes to AT but I don't get the above treeline is the best theme ? There is lots of ways to get in trouble... vertigo, avi's, I get the scenery part but seems like unless you time a storm that has a following weak front most of the snow blows off to lower elevation anyway .

There is plenty of places to enjoy without being above treeline . I've never been to Saddleback but have looked at the trail map with envy. Seems a perfect place to skin! But how fast does the vegetation in Me grow ? I've skied Mittersill years ago with 3' Blackberry bushes and got shredded LOL

I plan summer hikes to check out areas to ski local and have a few places that don't require much of a base . I keep my AT stuff in my vehicle for short tours ,even a few hundred vert can be fun . Nice to do places that haven't been done by anyone . I bet even Connecticut has some nice places for short tours if you can't get to the bigger mountains.

Curious if Maine have a version of hike safe card?

 

[Smellytele]

I believe it is 8 mostly flat miles in to roaring brook where they make you stay the first night. From there you go up to Chimney pond which is maybe 4 miles. I have climbed it in the winter via this route 3 times. Skied into roaring brook then hiked from there to chimney pond as the trail was not very wide and harder to ski while towing a a full sled.

 

[GregoryIsaacs]

Anyone have any good photos that shows some of the radness of saddleback?

 

[Edd]

Anyone have any good photos that shows some of the radness of saddleback?

April, 2013

 

[Jully]

My point is that it is highly unlikely lifts ever spin again at Saddleback, if they do, then I will cheer and ski there once and a while. If my premise is correct, then would be nice if the ski part of the mountain is preserved in some way for folks to earn their turns.

I unfortunately agree that it is unlikely lifts spin again, but still just a few years out, I don't want to give up hope yet. It would be much better for Franklin County and, IMO, NE skiers as a whole if SB was a lift served area.

I 100% agree with you that if/when those efforts fail and momentum to save the mountain declines, some kind of preservation would be nice. Something along the lines of Ascutney would work too. Obviously ANY kind of preservation is better than none.

 

[Jully]

If you aren't suggesting Mount Washington for mid winter touring then what? You said it was far superior than other locations but then it's not? I can't follow ya and I'm confused like waking up next to that mistake and now I'm getting all savage like a coyote in a bear trap.

Spring time when your new to touring skier is in peak skiing shape and they would likely have more interest in earning their turns than going to a lift served place after skiing resorts all winter. I personally have always found people talk a lot more about trying AT out in the springtime and conditions are generally safer than they would be in January too.

Sorry you're struggling to follow me. I was responding originally in reference to you talking about new AT skiers. Not really sure why that made you so defensive and think you're making bad decisions engaging in a conversation about Saddleback/touring back east. In general, except for the occasional uncalled for insult/snark, I'm finding the discourse informative and nice to discuss.

And what's wrong with Saddleback for ski touring? Someone said it has good snow retention, sure it's a little farther but wouldn't that help with conditions for the willing that would make that drive? It has cleared runs and glades, isn't that good for powder skiing or are East coasters so used to 3 turns to closeouts filled with twigs to traverses for more 3 turn lines to closeouts that you aren't into that sort of thing? Duck duck goose, here comes another branch!

Nothing is wrong with Saddleback as an area for touring at all. It has great snow retention and like someone else mention (maybe Cat in January) the former Kennebago Quad area is actually a pretty consistent ~1000' vert section that would be perfect for touring.

My issue is that if SB were set up for touring, it would be incredibly under utilized due to all the other options significantly closer to population centers that are nearly as good. SB is a difficult 4+ hours from Boston even further from the rest of MA (long, incredibly crappy Maine roads). Being located outside of NE, it is definitely easy to overlook that.

In contrast, the new backcountry options being cut in the MWV/the rest of NH are much, much easier drives. No more than a handful of people outside of Franklin County ME would ever visit SB for touring, IMO. Anyone new to touring would almost definitely never use Saddleback (I thought you were making this point earlier).

Additionally I got the impression that you were saying leaving it for touring only was somehow better or just as good for skiing than restoring SB as a lift served area. IMO, that is very not true. It would be very under utilized and provide no help to struggling Franklin County.

Maybe I was misunderstanding or struggling to follow you. In which case, sorry for misconstruing your point.

I guess I'm breaking into that bottle again, it's June, around 90 degrees every day and the forests are closed here so I might as well do some day drinking and make bad decisions surfing the internets for my boredom therapy. Now hold my beer, I'm about to hook into a Jerry Burger and it's gonna be WICKED!.

Summer can suck the forums, but I was never trying to challenge your knowledge of AT experience/safety or anything there. I was simply rebuking that SB would be a good touring only resource to improve the burgeoning AT scene in New England. IMO, it would do virtually nothing for it.

 

[deadheadskier]

I bet an organization like Granite Backcountry Alliance would be willing to step in on a volunteer basis. Or more locally you have the volunteer group that cuts glades at BMOM.

Speaking of BMOM, it sure seems weird to be talking about Saddleback on NELSAP instead of there. Granted bare bones operation at BMOM and a lot of donations as understand it to get it where it is today. For Saddleback to go in that direction, the Berry's would basically have to donate the mountain. They may have to eventually though no? That's a huge non-revenue producing asset to just allow to sit dormant. Wonder what the annual property taxes bill is.

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[AdironRider]

It'll just sit and become a timberland investment, like everywhere else that far north in Maine.

They are actually large parts of lots of Ivy endowments, pension funds, etc. The Berry's aren't going to have to donate a thing. When push comes to shove, Saddleback will sell for a minimum of at least that.

 

[Razor]

This whole situation makes me sick. Saddleback is where we first brought our kids skiing. We'd go there every February school vacation because it was one place where we could always get a room, and the price was right. Then my wife and I would be sure to get back there at least once a year when the kids were gone. Loved the place and the entire Rangeley area.

 

[Jully]

I bet an organization like Granite Backcountry Alliance would be willing to step in on a volunteer basis. Or more locally you have the volunteer group that cuts glades at BMOM.

Speaking of BMOM, it sure seems weird to be talking about Saddleback on NELSAP instead of there. Granted bare bones operation at BMOM and a lot of donations as understand it to get it where it is today. For Saddleback to go in that direction, the Berry's would basically have to donate the mountain. They may have to eventually though no? That's a huge non-revenue producing asset to just allow to sit dormant. Wonder what the annual property taxes bill is.

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The price of it sitting dormant baffles me. The land is continuing to cost them money, the lodge and lifts are losing value. I suppose it is nice that they have not done a fire sale of all the lifts (well, the two quads really), but a little confusing financially.

I don't know much about ski lift value, so maybe lifts don't depreciate in value much over the years.

 

[thetrailboss]

The price of it sitting dormant baffles me. The land is continuing to cost them money, the lodge and lifts are losing value. I suppose it is nice that they have not done a fire sale of all the lifts (well, the two quads really), but a little confusing financially.

I don't know much about ski lift value, so maybe lifts don't depreciate in value much over the years.

This also stuns me. I would also think that having it operating would mean the loss of less money.

Perhaps a local can offer a different POV, but honestly I am pretty disappointed with the Berry Family. If I were a condo owner or a homeowner in the area, I would be ripshit. To play chicken with the state and then to burn two years courting a pretty shady buyer (at best) looks pretty selfish in my opinion. I believe that part of their investment in Saddleback was to help the area. But I also believe, and understand, that they would want to get their money back and then some. Letting it sit empty for now almost three seasons killed off a lot of goodwill and business that will be very, very hard to get back.

 

[MEtoVTSkier]

I bet an organization like Granite Backcountry Alliance would be willing to step in on a volunteer basis. Or more locally you have the volunteer group that cuts glades at BMOM.

Speaking of BMOM, it sure seems weird to be talking about Saddleback on NELSAP instead of there. Granted bare bones operation at BMOM and a lot of donations as understand it to get it where it is today. For Saddleback to go in that direction, the Berry's would basically have to donate the mountain. They may have to eventually though no? That's a huge non-revenue producing asset to just allow to sit dormant. Wonder what the annual property taxes bill is.

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BMOM has all that Nordic history and comps that helped it stay afloat some too I'm sure...

 

[bigbog]

Agree about the situation for lift-served...everybody's thinking the same old-school way...if several people who have good ideas would talk to some of the potential businesses, there could be a chance of some communication between the combined half-deep pockets and the ideas that would get things moving and get multiple businesses on the same wavelength...but I think it'll take more than a couple businesses...or one of the deep_pocket entities, which seems like easier way....if those at the top of those major entities would let the locals establish guidelines for the area resort....but we all know how that gets railroaded towards the home office.

 

[Cat in January]

My take on why Saddleback is where it is:

Berry's lose a LOT less money with it closed than open.

They feel an obligation to try to make it go as a ski area. Whether that is to the community, folks they sold expensive real estate too or their legacy I don't know.

They were patient with SMF, but the organization was slow to raise funds and had a difficult time defining who they were going to be as an entity.

The Australians had obvious weakness in their plan (no ski experience), but they had cash down payment and it was the only offer outside SMF to appear so the Berry's took the money crossed their fingers and hoped for the best. Outcome is no known.

Breaking up the assets (lodge, land, equipment) would lead to netting nearly the same value as selling the mountain as a whole. Berry's have been holding out for the whole mountain sale. Doing what we as skiers would ask them to do if they wanted our opinion.

What I am suggesting is that if they grow weary of losing money and the assets are broken up, that we try to preserve the upper mountain (lower flater trails will probably be part of the RE with the lodge) for skiing in some sort of a land trust. Piece of the parking lot and the upper mountain with access.

 

[sull1102]

My take on why Saddleback is where it is:

Berry's lose a LOT less money with it closed than open.

They feel an obligation to try to make it go as a ski area. Whether that is to the community, folks they sold expensive real estate too or their legacy I don't know.

They were patient with SMF, but the organization was slow to raise funds and had a difficult time defining who they were going to be as an entity.

The Australians had obvious weakness in their plan (no ski experience), but they had cash down payment and it was the only offer outside SMF to appear so the Berry's took the money crossed their fingers and hoped for the best. Outcome is no known.

Breaking up the assets (lodge, land, equipment) would lead to netting nearly the same value as selling the mountain as a whole. Berry's have been holding out for the whole mountain sale. Doing what we as skiers would ask them to do if they wanted our opinion.

What I am suggesting is that if they grow weary of losing money and the assets are broken up, that we try to preserve the upper mountain (lower flater trails will probably be part of the RE with the lodge) for skiing in some sort of a land trust. Piece of the parking lot and the upper mountain with access.

Who buys the lodge and the land though? I'm thinking logging operations might be interested, but the lodge is a strange situation being pretty remote

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[Cat in January]

Throwing spit at the wall. Rumored price of 3 million. So let's say 2.7

900k for ski industry fire sale, snow making may have more value than lifts at this point

900k for nature preserve for Saddleback. Foundation had a partner land trust so structures already around.

900k for the lodge and say 20 acres of land. (Berry family keeps all the land along the road, parking lots, everything else) Put another 600k into converting the lodge to an upscale B&B



Worse case scenario from my point of view is it is bought by a UTV outfitter who sells off the ski equipment and sells passes for day use for riding the trails. Lodge in existing form has food sales, bar. Install a restaurant too to maximize profitability. UTV sales all of the lower level. Winter switch over whatever machine you want for snow hill climbs. Poor condo owners would have little say unless they wanted to throw money at lawyers

 

[mbedle]

Throwing spit at the wall. Rumored price of 3 million. So let's say 2.7

900k for ski industry fire sale, snow making may have more value than lifts at this point

900k for nature preserve for Saddleback. Foundation had a partner land trust so structures already around.

900k for the lodge and say 20 acres of land. (Berry family keeps all the land along the road, parking lots, everything else) Put another 600k into converting the lodge to an upscale B&B



Worse case scenario from my point of view is it is bought by a UTV outfitter who sells off the ski equipment and sells passes for day use for riding the trails. Lodge in existing form has food sales, bar. Install a restaurant too to maximize profitability. UTV sales all of the lower level. Winter switch over whatever machine you want for snow hill climbs. Poor condo owners would have little say unless they wanted to throw money at lawyers

Where did you get a rumored price of 3 million and for what was 3 million? My understanding is that it went up for sale at a list price of 12 million including all 7,000 acres. The Saddleback Mountain Foundation had a verbal agreement or understand that they would purchase only 700 acres, including the resort for 6 million (2.2 million at closing and 3.8 financed from the Berrys). They had also been working with the Trust for Public Land to have them also purchase 3,249 acres from the Berrys for permanent conservation. The Berry's would retain the rest of the land for future development.

 

[AdironRider]

Who buys the lodge and the land though? I'm thinking logging operations might be interested, but the lodge is a strange situation being pretty remote

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Pretty much every ranch out here that still runs cattle has a dope lodge for weddings/events/land baron use. The condos ruin the view though.