Saddleback

[deadheadskier]

I love the idea of a place like Cat described above. If I lived in the Boston area I’d love to have property near a mountain like that.

Maybe it’s never gonna happen for Saddleback but I think that sort of thing is gaining popularity, especially with the high price of ski passes and everything else that goes with the sport.

I had a random thought earlier today, would Sugarloaf be interested in saddleback? They aren’t too far apart are they?

Boyne has kicked the tires. The numbers didn't make sense. SB would likely steal more skier visits from Loaf than it would bring newer skiers to the region.

IMO if Boyne were to expand in the East, the focus should be on an area that gets them into the NY/NJ market. Stratton or Okemo would be expensive, but good choices for them. Neither likely available anytime soon. Actually a Boyne/Powdr merger makes a lot of sense to me. Would compete nicely against Vail and Alterra.

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[Smellytele]

Boyne has kicked the tires. The numbers didn't make sense. SB would likely steal more skier visits from Loaf than it would bring newer skiers to the region.

IMO if Boyne were to expand in the East, the focus should be on an area that gets them into the NY/NJ market. Stratton or Okemo would be expensive, but good choices for them. Neither likely available anytime soon. Actually a Boyne/Powdr merger makes a lot of sense to me. Would compete nicely against Vail and Alterra.

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What about them buying Smuggs? Or a smaller place like Bromley? I was going to say Bolton but that place seems to always have money/skier visit issues almost as bad as Burke.

 

[sull1102]

Bromley is doing pretty well for themselves in a partnership or semi ownership type relationship with Cranmore and Jiminy Peak.

 

[machski]

What about them buying Smuggs? Or a smaller place like Bromley? I was going to say Bolton but that place seems to always have money/skier visit issues almost as bad as Burke.

Boyne has zero interest in buying any more resorts.

https://www.tcbusinessnews.com/2018...bt-structure-enables-reacquisitions-upgrades/

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[deadheadskier]

Boyne has zero interest in buying any more resorts.

https://www.tcbusinessnews.com/2018...bt-structure-enables-reacquisitions-upgrades/

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....in the next 3 to 5 years

Is what the article says. A lot can change in that time frame though.

Maybe they stick to what they have, but I think it would be wise to get into the NJ, NY, CT market. Having something local to that market would only help drive traffic to their more distant resorts. A Bromley would work, especially if they could expand it a bit.

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[machski]

....in the next 3 to 5 years

Is what the article says. A lot can change in that time frame though.

Maybe they stick to what they have, but I think it would be wise to get into the NJ, NY, CT market. Having something local to that market would only help drive traffic to their more distant resorts. A Bromley would work, especially if they could expand it a bit.

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Personally, based on their plans and pace at Big Sky and need for reinvestment at most of the rest of their portfolio, I think they have about zero aquisition capital in that time frame. They could decide to leverage up again but I think they will be cautious about that. Since they have parts of the former ASC empire, hopefully they take a lesson from that forray into high leveraged aquisitions.

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[machski]

Well, Rangley airport is getting a bunch of cash to improve itself, namely a runway extension. Not sure how much (it needs quite a bit I believe to fit most jets), now they just need to get that ski resort going again.
https://www.apnews.com/2665c120a901408a84b26350b512f1da

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[bdfreetuna]

A Bromley would work, especially if they could expand it a bit.

Expand Bromley, you say?

 

[mister moose]

Well, Rangley airport is getting a bunch of cash to improve itself, namely a runway extension. Not sure how much (it needs quite a bit I believe to fit most jets), now they just need to get that ski resort going again.
https://www.apnews.com/2665c120a901408a84b26350b512f1da

Current length is 3,200 feet, adequate for light piston twins and even a basic slow Citation jet. There's lots of factors involved, one of which is what level of safety you want to assume. There's a difference between what the airplane is capable of if an engine doesn't fail on take-off and you're light on load and fuel, vs heavy load with extra runway for aborting with engine failure.

The extension to 4,300 feet is based on what's known as balanced field length for B200 King Air, which is the fixed wing med-evac airplane. It's a smallish corporate turboprop, in the same family as the often seen Beech 1900 19 seat commuter plane.

However you can land most corporate jets into 4,300 feet.

It's a lousy non precision instrument approach there too.

 

[machski]

Current length is 3,200 feet, adequate for light piston twins and even a basic slow Citation jet. There's lots of factors involved, one of which is what level of safety you want to assume. There's a difference between what the airplane is capable of if an engine doesn't fail on take-off and you're light on load and fuel, vs heavy load with extra runway for aborting with engine failure.

The extension to 4,300 feet is based on what's known as balanced field length for B200 King Air, which is the fixed wing med-evac airplane. It's a smallish corporate turboprop, in the same family as the often seen Beech 1900 19 seat commuter plane.

However you can land most corporate jets into 4,300 feet.

It's a lousy non precision instrument approach there too.

Nice you found the planned extension length. 4300 is decent, could get the Phenom 300 in and out, dry anyway. Haven't looked at the approaches there, but extended strip first, better RNAV can be added later.

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[skimagic]

Sadly, no positive saddleback news, just a link to an article about closure effect on Rangely

https://www.bostonglobe.com/lifesty...XBRb1O0B3ZAeS2xoXQarUEaRZz1xEvHJdd6OH1g4e-N0A

 

[thetrailboss]

Sadly, no positive saddleback news, just a link to an article about closure effect on Rangely

https://www.bostonglobe.com/lifesty...XBRb1O0B3ZAeS2xoXQarUEaRZz1xEvHJdd6OH1g4e-N0A

This is very sad. Not what anyone wanted.

 

[thetrailboss]

Sadly, no positive saddleback news, just a link to an article about closure effect on Rangely

https://www.bostonglobe.com/lifesty...XBRb1O0B3ZAeS2xoXQarUEaRZz1xEvHJdd6OH1g4e-N0A

And this is my sentiment...

“One of my criticisms has always been to me they had a responsibility to the community and they haven’t been very forthright on the progress of moving the mountain forward with new owners,” Welch said. “The excuse always is, ‘Well we have to keep everything confidential.’ Well, yeah I guess you do, but on the other side, all of us are paying for that business model.”

 

[Bostonian]

Necroing the old thread... but it looks like there is some movement on Saddleback

https://www.newenglandskiindustry.com/viewstory.php?storyid=776

 

[Smellytele]

Although it states opening the ski area is not a certainty


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[machski]

Looking for opportunity zoning or EB-5 options does not speak well to the depth of the pockets of the buyers. Good luck, would like to see it work out but I'm skeptical this group has the pockets to make Saddleback truly soar.

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[EPB]

Looking for opportunity zoning or EB-5 options does not speak well to the depth of the pockets of the buyers. Good luck, would like to see it work out but I'm skeptical this group has the pockets to make Saddleback truly soar.

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Not super familiar with opportunity zoning, but it seems like common sense to take a tax break if the government will give you one.

One gap I have on EB-5 is the return you need to pay on investment. Do they get shares, or more of a structured return (interest/dividend and potential maturity date). The reason I ask is because it could be cheap financing to go bigger than the market would otherwise allow without dilluting themselves into oblivion.

To your point, this is a tough development because they need to put up quite a bit of $$$ to attract the right amount of masses to the area.

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[cdskier]

One gap I have on EB-5 is the return you need to pay on investment. Do they get shares, or more of a structured return (interest/dividend and potential maturity date). The reason I ask is because it could be cheap financing to go bigger than the market would otherwise allow without dilluting themselves into oblivion.

"Need" may not be the right word. Since it is an investment, nothing can be guaranteed and it must involve some level of risk. Generally speaking my impression is that most "honest" projects at least try to pay back the full principal and maybe a tiny amount of interest. But let's be realistic here, the foreign "investors" aren't looking for a big return. They simply want the green card (and this is one of the huge criticisms of this program in that it essentially allows people with money to just buy their way here).

 

[EPB]

"Need" may not be the right word. Since it is an investment, nothing can be guaranteed and it must involve some level of risk. Generally speaking my impression is that most "honest" projects at least try to pay back the full principal and maybe a tiny amount of interest. But let's be realistic here, the foreign "investors" aren't looking for a big return. They simply want the green card (and this is one of the huge criticisms of this program in that it essentially allows people with money to just buy their way here).

I use the term "need" because if the buyer actually wants to make money off this endeavor (and agreed - normally I wouldn't normally talk this way, but these ski developments seem to have unusually high occurrences of ulterior motives), it could be prudent to take artificially cheap capital from foreigners looking to jump the line rather than raise capital on the merits of the business plan. I personally think it's way too risky of a move for my $$$.

I don't know if this would be considered sacrilege, but I've wondered if there's a way for a place like SB to strike a deal with an Alterra or Epic (most likely Epic given proximity to SR/SL) where they could get decently paid to take overflow traffic onto their relatively empty mountain.

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[GregoryIsaacs]

Does anyone have any photos of SB's "snowfields"? I dont think Ive ever gotten a good idea of what they ski like.