Ski Magazine 2017-18 Eastern Resort Rankings

[cdskier]

Wow, people really hate Vail.

Stowe at #8 may as well be #78.

Actually many surveys were submitted BEFORE Vail bought Stowe. Complaints about pricing were one of the reasons for it being lower on the list. Apparently parking was also a complaint in the surveys.

https://www.skimag.com/ski-resort-life/stowe-vermont

 

[dlague]

Wow, people really hate Vail.

Stowe at #8 may as well be #78.

Has nothing to do with Vail but more to do with how much it costs to ski there IMO prior to Vail.

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[mbedle]

You know why these are always BS, the picture they use for the No. 1 resort Smuggler's Notch, actually shows the trails on Stowe in the background...

 

[BenedictGomez]

Actually many surveys were submitted BEFORE Vail bought Stowe. Complaints about pricing were one of the reasons for it being lower on the list. Apparently parking was also a complaint in the surveys.

Has nothing to do with Vail but more to do with how much it costs to ski there IMO prior to Vail.

Stowe has always been the most expensive area in the east. Why would that plummet them specifically this year?

Unless I have this silly survey confused with a different silly survey, Stowe's normally top-5.

 

[cdskier]

Stowe has always been the most expensive area in the east. Why would that plummet them specifically this year?

Unless I have this silly survey confused with a different silly survey, Stowe's normally top-5.

People finally got tired of it? Different people submitting the survey? Less people submitting surveys in general for Stowe? More people submitting surveys for other areas? Who really knows? Without knowing the details on the methodology of how they tabulate results, who submits surveys, how many were submitted, etc, then I really wouldn't put much stock in this survey to begin with (Holiday Valley used to be top 5 for years which was just bizarre to me).

 

[tnt1234]

In terms of amenities, and great skiing for all levels, it's hard for me not to think Stowe is top 3 at least. Really, probably #1 actually.

Sure, it's expensive, but I think it's really the best all around experience. (Mind you, I've never stayed on the resort, but have spent time at the restaurant,s lodges etc....)

 

[deadheadskier]

Midweek I'd say Stowe is about as good as it gets in the East. Weekends? I don't really have much interest in waiting in a 30+ minute traffic jam to park my car. I lived in Stowe for many years. All of my old friends completely avoid the mountain on the weekends these days. Some of those friends work in Real Estate and as I've mentioned before they are seeing long term second home owners looking to cash out and move down the road to Sugarbush for less traffic.

I suspect Stowe's drop in rankings is because it's a victim of its own success. That said, these lists/surveys are always a crap shoot. It will probably be ranked #1 next year without changing a thing and Mountain Snow will be back in the teens.

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[tnt1234]

Midweek I'd say Stowe is about as good as it gets in the East. Weekends? I don't really have much interest in waiting in a 30+ minute traffic jam to park my car. I lived in Stowe for many years. All of my old friends completely avoid the mountain on the weekends these days. Some of those friends work in Real Estate and as I've mentioned before they are seeing long term second home owners looking to cash out and move down the road to Sugarbush for less traffic.

I suspect Stowe's drop in rankings is because it's a victim of its own success. That said, these lists/surveys are always a crap shoot. It will probably be ranked #1 next year without changing a thing and Mountain Snow will be back in the teens.

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Yeah, the access road can be a drag, but, you know, the lifts seem to gobble up the lines. There might be a jam at the 4-runner and Gondi from like 10-11:30, but most weekends I've been there, somehow, they all magically ease up at lunch and doesn't really get bad again.

Never been on Pres. day, or other big holidays. Skied a few days over X-mas a few years ago, but crap conditions kept crowds low regardless of the holiday.

But yeah, point taken on the car traffic. God forbid someone break down at 4:30 PM on the way out....My friend, who has a place up there, was telling me they once came off the mountain at 4:15, had a drink in the shed, looked outside and saw the access road backed up all the way to the lots. People were stuck in the parking lots trying to leave. They just went over to spruce, had dinner, walked around for a bit, and traffic finally started moving at like 7-8PM. A car crash in the middle of the access road just blew up the whole place.

 

[BenedictGomez]

long term second home owners looking to cash out and move down the road to Sugarbush

Wow. That's interesting, and not good.

What about the taxes though, in the last 10 or 15 years Vermont has begun to punish those people like they're human rights abusers. I imagine that's gotta' be hurting the 2nd home purchase market as well.

 

[benski]

What about the taxes though, in the last 10 or 15 years Vermont has begun to punish those people like they're human rights abusers. I imagine that's gotta' be hurting the 2nd home purchase market as well.

Your obsessed with this Vermont tax thing. This has nothing to do with Vermont taxes.

 

[Smellytele]

Your obsessed with this Vermont tax thing. This has nothing to do with Vermont taxes.

I agree because it is claimed they are just moving down the road to Sugarbush.

 

[BenedictGomez]

Your obsessed with this Vermont tax thing. This has nothing to do with Vermont taxes.

Well, I'm certainly not "obsessed" with taxation in Vermont, but economics is one of my favorite things, and taxation plays a huge part in economics. That said, if you really don't think property taxes in Vermont are extremely high and have a negative effect on 2nd home purchases, you're just not paying attention.

New Jersey property taxes are the highest in all of America, but Vermont's have skyrocketed so much in the last 15 years that Vermont's are one of the worst in America now too. When you take things like median income into account, Vermont's probably even worse than its' ranking suggests. Just eyeballing figures, property taxes have gotta' be getting painful on the average Vermonter I would think.

https://www.attomdata.com/news/heat-maps/2016-property-tax-analysis/

I agree because it is claimed they are just moving down the road to Sugarbush.

I took it to mean that's where they now ski, but obviously if someone sells a Stowe 2nd home and then immediately buys a Waitsfield 2nd home taxes werent the key driver as they're not saving all that much.

 

[tumbler]

This survey is all about who pays the most for their ranking. The mountain and terrain didn't change.

Taxes are brutal in VT. 2nd homeowners are taxed more than full time residents, very frustrating.

 

[cdskier]

Well, I'm certainly not "obsessed" with taxation in Vermont, but economics is one of my favorite things, and taxation plays a huge part in economics. That said, if you really don't think property taxes in Vermont are extremely high and have a negative effect on 2nd home purchases, you're just not paying attention.

New Jersey property taxes are the highest in all of America, but Vermont's have skyrocketed so much in the last 15 years that Vermont's are one of the worst in America now too. When you take things like median income into account, Vermont's probably even worse than its' ranking suggests. Just eyeballing figures, property taxes have gotta' be getting painful on the average Vermonter I would think.

https://www.attomdata.com/news/heat-maps/2016-property-tax-analysis/

While the tax rates may be high in Vermont (as is most of the northeast pretty much), real estate values in VT are lower than NJ, so ultimately you're still paying less taxes for a comparable home. Also for someone purchasing a second home, I don't see tax rates playing a big role in the decision. If you decide you want a vacation home in VT, you're not going to look at the rates and say "screw that, Colorado is much lower, I'll buy one there instead". Overall cost is a factor, sure, but most people would sooner look for a slightly less expensive house before they decide to buy a second home in a completely different state just to save on taxes.

 

[cdskier]

This survey is all about who pays the most for their ranking. The mountain and terrain didn't change.

Taxes are brutal in VT. 2nd homeowners are taxed more than full time residents, very frustrating.

It varies year to year and town to town. In Warren and Waitsfield, the non-resident rate this year is slightly less than the resident rate (and in Warren has been this way for a couple years now if I remember correctly from my tax bill).

 

[Hawk]

Sugarbush #2? How did they pull that off (don't get me wrong, I love the place as it is my home mountain, just surprised they made it that high).

I think you have it. They just sampled some of the "Green" mountain product with them. HA

 

[bdfreetuna]

These ski magazines are no better than reading something you pulled off the rack while unloading your grocery cart.

Anything mentioning ski areas, resorts is either subsidized or written by 50% cosmopolitans and the other 50% self-professed "ski bums", aka graduates of a self-designed major at Weed University (with a required core of 20 units in gender studies).

As long as they fail to mention the actual best places to hit on a powder day...

In reality these are lifestyle magazines and for richfags who hop a plane to see some snow, written by SJWs who lament the influence of capitalism on their sacred mountains.

Ski Magazine said my ski is a 3.72 and yours is only a 3.43 ... SUCK IT

 

[deadheadskier]

Wow. That's interesting, and not good.

What about the taxes though, in the last 10 or 15 years Vermont has begun to punish those people like they're human rights abusers. I imagine that's gotta' be hurting the 2nd home purchase market as well.

The real penalties for second home owners came with Act 60 back in the 90s. While I'm sure it's gotten worse since, that was the big jump. My folks 1350 sqft second home in Ludlow saw it's taxes jump from $2k to $4.5k+ basically overnight when Act 60 went live.

As for these Stowe folks leaving, the motivation is the increased traffic in town and overall change in feel over the past 15 years. The benefit is they probably can get the same quality property in the MRV for less than half the cost and much lower taxes.

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[cdskier]

I think you have it. They just sampled some of the "Green" mountain product with them. HA

LOL! Sure could be!

 

[BenedictGomez]

real estate values in VT are lower than NJ, so ultimately you're still paying less taxes for a comparable home.

Not really. Very slightly. That's where 'effective tax rate' comes into play, and Vermont's is one of the worst in the nation. Better than NJ, but still pretty bad.

If you decide you want a vacation home in VT, you're not going to look at the rates and say "screw that, Colorado is much lower, I'll buy one there instead".

You sure? That's DEFINITELY something I'd think about. Taxes, price appreciation of asset, etc... all of that. Cost would be a huge factor in my decision. For some people who are buying solely for every weekend trips, well then sure, because they cant fly every week. But if you're only making it on say 3 ski trips a year, that CO home you mention sounds pretty nice.

As for these Stowe folks leaving, the motivation is the increased traffic in town and overall change in feel over the past 15 years. The benefit is they probably can get the same quality property in the MRV for less than half the cost and much lower taxes.

Sounds good to me. Stowe > Sugarbush, but money is money. And if Stowe traffic truly is becoming a nightmare it probably makes those savings look even sweeter.