Spruce Triple - Sunday River, ME

[deadheadskier]

You think incorrectly. They have stated commitment to TTB snowmaking on Risky, AmEx and Upper Downdraft (Upper Downdraft is only accessible from the top). Granted, they will likely wait to make the upper portions that are not connections until later than normal in the season, but they will in most scenarios(the exception being I suppose if this season winds up like last).

Just seems silly to me to make snow on hike to terrain. If I were a passholder I'd rather see that snow go towards deeper bases on Barker trails to have a better late April product.

 

[machski]

Just seems silly to me to make snow on hike to terrain. If I were a passholder I'd rather see that snow go towards deeper bases on Barker trails to have a better late April product.

Well look, Spruce terrain usually sees several rounds of snowmaking and usually is opening by Thanksgiving if not earlier. I am not suggesting they will be making snow like usual on the upper terrain that is hike to, but they are promising they will make snow to open it. Honestly, without snowmaking, Upper Downdraft and to some extent all three need the dense man-made to keep the rocky sections covered just from wind exposure. My guess is they will hit the upper terrain once each and after they have skiing from all lift served peaks open first (including off Oz Quad). Again, if this season goes as last, I doubt they hit upper Spruce runs.

Personally, I would like to see them hit Quantum Leap and Eureka this year before upper Spruce. Those trails haven't seen a gun in years but can be a blast when open. Seems better use of resources to me.

 

[Edd]

Personally, I would like to see them hit Quantum Leap....

That trail rejects snow to a supernatural extent. A two foot pow day and you're hitting rock everywhere.

 

[deadheadskier]

Well look, Spruce terrain usually sees several rounds of snowmaking and usually is opening by Thanksgiving if not earlier. I am not suggesting they will be making snow like usual on the upper terrain that is hike to, but they are promising they will make snow to open it. Honestly, without snowmaking, Upper Downdraft and to some extent all three need the dense man-made to keep the rocky sections covered just from wind exposure. My guess is they will hit the upper terrain once each and after they have skiing from all lift served peaks open first (including off Oz Quad). Again, if this season goes as last, I doubt they hit upper Spruce runs.

Personally, I would like to see them hit Quantum Leap and Eureka this year before upper Spruce. Those trails haven't seen a gun in years but can be a blast when open. Seems better use of resources to me.

That'd a shame they no longer make snow on Quantum leap. Love that trail

 

[machski]

That trail rejects snow to a supernatural extent. A two foot pow day and you're hitting rock everywhere.

It actually is a horrible exposure. A lot of sun and winds tend to blow straight up it. That's why without man made snow, it rarely opens.

 

[xlr8r]

Ok couple of thoughts.

Now that a replacement this year is not going to happen, it would be best IMO to replace it with a low capacity detachable quad with the chairs spaced far apart. At least that way they can market it as an improvement, while keeping the skier density as is.

This CNL situation really is strangling these ski areas from doing anything, or Boyne really is cheap when it comes to lifts. The lift needs to be replaced regardless so I do not see the point in waiting for CNL or insurrance. Get to work replacing the lift, Boyne has the money to do it, so just build it now and deal with the insurance and CNL later.

I wonder if Sunday River will alter or refund any money for season passes and lift tickets. Hard to justify raising prices, when one of the best and most popular peaks on the mountain will not be lift served this season.

 

[steamboat1]

Ok couple of thoughts.

Now that a replacement this year is not going to happen, it would be best IMO to replace it with a low capacity detachable quad with the chairs spaced far apart. At least that way they can market it as an improvement, while keeping the skier density as is.

This CNL situation really is strangling these ski areas from doing anything, or Boyne really is cheap when it comes to lifts. The lift needs to be replaced regardless so I do not see the point in waiting for CNL or insurrance. Get to work replacing the lift, Boyne has the money to do it, so just build it now and deal with the insurance and CNL later.

I wonder if Sunday River will alter or refund any money for season passes and lift tickets. Hard to justify raising prices, when one of the best and most popular peaks on the mountain will not be lift served this season.

Big Sky (Boyne) is replacing the Challenger double with a carpet loading triple. On the other hand a HS heated 6 is replacing Lone Peak triple. CNL is not involved.

 

[machski]

Ok couple of thoughts.

Now that a replacement this year is not going to happen, it would be best IMO to replace it with a low capacity detachable quad with the chairs spaced far apart. At least that way they can market it as an improvement, while keeping the skier density as is.

This CNL situation really is strangling these ski areas from doing anything, or Boyne really is cheap when it comes to lifts. The lift needs to be replaced regardless so I do not see the point in waiting for CNL or insurrance. Get to work replacing the lift, Boyne has the money to do it, so just build it now and deal with the insurance and CNL later.

I wonder if Sunday River will alter or refund any money for season passes and lift tickets. Hard to justify raising prices, when one of the best and most popular peaks on the mountain will not be lift served this season.

Doubt it on refunds, things happen. Probably why they say they are still going to make snow. New triple is fine with me, the cost would easily double for a HSQ for little return on a 4300' lifeline in my opinion. Other things (lodges) need to have money spent and Barker Quad will need to be replaced inside a decade (earlier would be preferred). Oh, and that 50% boost in water pump capacity they have promised would be nice too.

 

[machski]

Big Sky (Boyne) is replacing the Challenger double with a carpet loading triple. On the other hand a HS heated 6 is replacing Lone Peak triple. CNL is not involved.

Yes, and that short heated six will be connected by a gondola on their 2025 plan. Wonder if they will join it fully and make it a Chondola? Some of Big Sky financing may be coming from Cross Harbor Partners (Yellowstone club). They are the entity that actually purchased Moonlight and Spanish Peaks.

 

[xlr8r]

As I see it, there is no way they are going to put in a detachable lift. They very recently invested in a carpet loader for that lift, and a newer triple would be able to boost that speed even a little more. A detachable raises the budget way too much. Sure they could move the carpet loader to another lift, again, adding to the budget.

And really, what does Spruce peak serve of the mountain? 135 trails overall and this serves 3 trails as well as a connecting trail that you have to skate uphill to access. About 3% of the resort, give or take. Any rightful refund on my ski pass will amount about $12.00 (I bought a bronze pass last April for $419.00). I didn't get a refund last season when there were many more trails I could not ski due to lack of snow cover. They can take my $12.00 refund and put it in a fund for the new lift.

Folks, Sunday river is going to put in a somewhat faster triple than what was there, adding to the speed that the carpet loader provided. I say we should be happy with that. How many here gladly went/go to Mittersill when no lift was available at Canon, and maybe still do across the Saddle trail? They are saying they can not do it this year. I see them as not trying to unrealistically rush it and are looking to do it right next year. Good on them.

Sunday River markets the hell out of how they have 8 peaks, this being one of them. The old Spruce triple ran 7 days a week unlike Locke or Oz, and serves some of the premier terrain on the mountain as AMEX, Risky, and Downdraft are all long runs. And as you bring up trails rarely open or not open last year due to bad snow, AMEX Risky, and Downdraft were all open from last year from New Years on, and always open every year. So this is really more like 10% of the mountain not being lift served.

The real problem Sunday River is going to be facing lift wise is that there are very few redundant lifts there. To keep the mountain 100% open and lift served requires at minumum 10 lifts running:

Little White Cap
White Heat
Locke
Barker
Chondola
North Peak
Spruce
Aurora
Oz
Jordan Bowl

That leaves only Whitecap, South Ridge (which should run as it is the beginner lift), Quantum Leap, and Jordan Mountain (which doesn't serve any terrain) as redundant. So when ever Sunday River has a lift problem, chances are some terrain is cut off and most of these lifts are now 25+ years old. Also compared to other major mountains in the east a relatively small portion of Sunday River's terrain is served by detachable lifts as 5 peaks are still served only by fixed grips.

 

[Quietman]

Oz rarely runs with the exception of weekends, and I don't think that it ran at all last year(I could be wrong). By taking Kansas you can access at least 85% of the Oz runs, so in my opinion, the Oz quad is redundant.

 

[machski]

Oz rarely runs with the exception of weekends, and I don't think that it ran at all last year(I could be wrong). By taking Kansas you can access at least 85% of the Oz runs, so in my opinion, the Oz quad is redundant.

True on Oz, and North Peak is basically redundant with the Chondi. You would be wrong about the Oz quad, skied off it a few days last year. Ruby Palace was actually open a bit too and skied well when it was.

Risky and AmEx are very nice runs and will be missed, but Upper Downdraft doesn't get a ton of snowmaking love and last year was open sparingly or very icy when it was open. Not skied by many with the exception of first days open or after a dump. I don't buy 10% of the mountain there, sorry. Plenty of other terrain. Personally, I'd trade Upper Downdraft for Quantum Leap all the time. Pretty much same length but on the weekends, Quantum has a lift to lap without running down more mellow trails clustered up with skiers. Eureka, if kept in good shape, is a fun run too and could replace Upper Risky for terrain type for this season.

Finally, you would really put a detach up every peak at SR? You're insane, they'd go bankrupt. It costs a lot more to maintain a detach than a fixed grip. Given most line lengths barely exceeding 4000' at SR, no need for more detaches. Carpet loaders on Whitecap, Heat and Aurora would be more than adequate to gain a bit of speed on those lines for relatively little $ as compared to a detach. Not to mention a Fixed Grip will stay in operation in higher winds than a detach.

 

[xlr8r]

True on Oz, and North Peak is basically redundant with the Chondi. You would be wrong about the Oz quad, skied off it a few days last year. Ruby Palace was actually open a bit too and skied well when it was.

Risky and AmEx are very nice runs and will be missed, but Upper Downdraft doesn't get a ton of snowmaking love and last year was open sparingly or very icy when it was open. Not skied by many with the exception of first days open or after a dump. I don't buy 10% of the mountain there, sorry. Plenty of other terrain. Personally, I'd trade Upper Downdraft for Quantum Leap all the time. Pretty much same length but on the weekends, Quantum has a lift to lap without running down more mellow trails clustered up with skiers. Eureka, if kept in good shape, is a fun run too and could replace Upper Risky for terrain type for this season.

Finally, you would really put a detach up every peak at SR? You're insane, they'd go bankrupt. It costs a lot more to maintain a detach than a fixed grip. Given most line lengths barely exceeding 4000' at SR, no need for more detaches. Carpet loaders on Whitecap, Heat and Aurora would be more than adequate to gain a bit of speed on those lines for relatively little $ as compared to a detach. Not to mention a Fixed Grip will stay in operation in higher winds than a detach.

I would not put a detach on every peak, but some lifts could be upgraded. I would replace Spruce as stated earlier with a low capacity detachable quad to make the ride fast but keep density the same. I also would replace White Cap (Tempest) with a detachable quad to entice more people to park and start over there, and ski over there as the whole White Cap side is usually uncrowded. White Heat is fine as is as it is an expert pod, same for Oz. Locke's trails are all pretty narrow so I would keep the old school vibe and leave that as a fixed grip. Aurora is fine for now, the problem with Aurora is the mess that is Upper Northern Lights turning and crossing Kansas. When Aurora is due to be replaced, probably 10 years or so in the future, A detach would be good if they can fix the Kansas Northern Lights intersection.

I understand the non skiing benefits of the Chondola, but as far a skiing goes, the thing was a pointless addition. North Peak and South Ridge were both already served by detachable lifts so there was little reason to add a third there. It would of been better to spend that money on replacing old lifts than on the Chondola.

 

[deadheadskier]

Prior to any of that I would think upgrading Barker and Jordan to HS6 chairs would be a higher priority. Maybe move the Jordan HSQ into Aurora

 

[chuckstah]

Barker certainly needs an upgrade, but I think a detach 6 at Jordan is unnecessary. I've never personally seen a bad line there. I'd love to see a detach on the Tempest lift. As someone stated, many more people would utilize White Cap with one. Spruce is fine with a fixed grip. Not much terrain, and still easily accessible without a lift. Leave it natural this year.

 

[deadheadskier]

The Tempest lift positively sucks, worst on the mountain IMO. I just have a hard time seeing them investing $4M plus in what is essentially a transfer lift. Really only about 400 vert of decent skiing on a couple trails before a long run-out back to the chair. Seems like more a candidate for a conveyor.

Perhaps things have changed, but when I lived in Portland (8 years ago) and SR was the home hill, Jordan seemed to have the longest lines on the hill next to Barker.

Overall though, SR really doesn't have lift line issues outside of Barker. The current system spreads the crowds really well. Combine that with being second to K in skier visits most years and thats likely why they don't have more high speed lifts. What they have works very well.

 

[chuckstah]

Yup. The Tempest lift will never get upgraded under this ownership/management. The lift infrastructure overall is quite old. Hopefully a lift, any lift, will be replaced soon before it fails. One can dream?

 

[deadheadskier]

Definitely have a lot of lifts getting long in the tooth, but if you use Smuggs as a model, most of the fixed grip chairs probably have a good 20 years left in them.

My observation has been that most fixed grip chairs in New England have a lifespan of approximately 50 years. HSQ maybe 30? But that's kind of unknown. I think the only HSQ that has been replaced in New England because of age has been the very first one - Forerunner at Stowe. Weve seen others that have been upgraded to a HS6, but I'm unaware of an end of life replacement outside of Stowe's. Maybe we end up seeing detachable chairs start pushing 40 - 50 years.

 

[chuckstah]

Definitely have a lot of lifts getting long in the tooth, but if you use Smuggs as a model, most of the fixed grip chairs probably have a good 20 years left in them.

My observation has been that most fixed grip chairs in New England have a lifespan of approximately 50 years. HSQ maybe 30? But that's kind of unknown. I think the only HSQ that has been replaced in New England because of age has been the very first one - Forerunner at Stowe. Weve seen others that have been upgraded to a HS6, but I'm unaware of an end of life replacement outside of Stowe's. Maybe we end up seeing detachable chairs start pushing 40 - 50 years.

I certainly hope SR doesn't keep these lifts another 20 years, even if in theory they will last. I will move along well before then. IMO Smuggs is an exception, not the rule on longevity. All lifts should be used as a model, not one resort. They seem to be meticulous with maintenance. Can't say the same for Boyne resorts. I certainly agree that only time will tell how long detachables will last, but it looks to me like the SAFE life won't be as long as fixed chairs from what I've seen so far.

 

[deadheadskier]

Move along to where though? Banks aren't exactly opening up their wallets to lend to New England ski areas over the past decade. That might change, but overall it just seems like most NE mountains are likely to hold onto their lifts as long as they possibly can.