Stenger and Quiros Ousted from Management of Jay Peak and Burke

[VTKilarney]

I see that and have stayed as well and also agree they are pretty nice. I wonder how many or if people are actually buying them. People with extra money to blow seem to generally stay closer to Southern VT or venture to a "higher-class" type of place like Stowe. Jay is very out of the way and that area isn't exactly a selling point or a destination.

That's just my opinion though, I could be way off base, but that's just how it seems. IMO, that's what made sense about the whole project, they had the idea of building up the area, making it somewhat of a destination with some leading technology in the area.

Jay is not out of the way from a Montreal perspective.

 

[Jcb890]

Jay is not out of the way from a Montreal perspective.

This is true. Generally when I have been to Jay, there is a large % of Canadian people there.

Mont Tremblant and Jay are about the same distance away according to Google Maps. I'm going to guess most Canadians still choose Tremblant, but I have 0 data or anything to back that up.

 

[BenedictGomez]

What are your thoughts on Stowe then? They have spent over $500M on the Spruce Peak village. I forget the exact figures, but purely from an operating revenue stand point, Jay made more money in 2015-2016 than Stowe did. So, has Stowe's plan not been financially idiotic as well because a parent company underwrote it?

Jay Peak had more operating revenue than Stowe?!?!?! What's your source, because regardless of what year you're talking about, I cant possibly imagine that could be true. That would really shock me if so.

 

[BlueBoy74]

Jay Peak had more operating revenue than Stowe?!?!?! What's your source, because regardless of what year you're talking about, I cant possibly imagine that could be true. That would really shock me if so.

http://www.burlingtonfreepress.com/...l-resorts-buy-stowe-mountain-resort/98189012/

This hints at Vail expecting $5 million in profit in the next year fiscal year. Given the year round revenue stream with the waterpark, nearly year round hockey tournaments, and proximity to Montreal, not surprising.

 

[deadheadskier]

Jay Peak had more operating revenue than Stowe?!?!?! What's your source, because regardless of what year you're talking about, I cant possibly imagine that could be true. That would really shock me if so.

Sorry,

To clarify Jay had more operating profit than Stowe last year. This was a direct conversation I had with a member of the Vermont Ski Area Association. Financial performance information is shared pretty freely within the group. Almost all ski areas in the state lost money last year. Jay was one of the few profitable areas and actually lead the state. It wasn't the $9M they are reporting this year. The number $3M seems to be what I remember. It wasn't much.

 

[luvinjaycloud]

The EB5 money raised had nothing to do with real estate sales. It was used to finance the hotels, waterpark, ice rink, golf cottages, etc.

As far as comparing Stowe rev/profits to Jay, you are probably comparing ski operations at Stowe (which is all i think vail is buying) to entire resort operations (skiing, hotels, restaurants, water park etc) at Jay. Jay is nowhere as big as Stowe overall.

Trying to put an earnings yield on the total EB5 money raised has a lot of flaws. First, where do you get $600 mill??? It was $350 raised from EB5 and seven projects, which were not even all at Jay peak. It still would not be the expected return for a real estate deal of that size but while some blame the borrower for being reckless, the lenders were looking way past the fundamentals of a ski resort project and most would have been happy to just get their 10 year green card. That's why no US bank or private equity firm would ever touch the deal because the risk /reward was too high. And did the lenders look at the fees Quiros built in for himself in their offering documents??? (i haven't seen the offering docs but i read somewhere along the line up to 20%, that's a loser from the get go.)

What was truly a mess has come a long way out of the woods with the work by Goldberg and Leisure Resorts. A new buyer is going to buy a nice resort for a big discount to asset value, be operationally profitable, and have way fewer liabilities after the Rajay deal and after they are done with Quiros.

Just please, whoever you are, do something about replacing the Jet chair and the Bonnie!

 

[VTKilarney]

First, where do you get $600 mill??? It was $350 raised from EB5 and seven projects, which were not even all at Jay peak.

I have seen the $600 million figure in a lot of places. But you are correct, not all $600 million was put into Jay Peak.

Here is an example:
http://nhpr.org/post/troubled-times-how-vermont-got-600-million-foreign-investors#stream/0

And here:
https://vtdigger.org/2017/04/27/senate-zeroes-vermont-eb-5-regional-center-budget/

Burke didn't make money this year and AnC Bio never happened. So I stand by my statement that the return on investment for $600 million was no better than 1.5% this year. It's likely less when you factor Burke into the mix.

 

[Jully]

The EB5 money raised had nothing to do with real estate sales. It was used to finance the hotels, waterpark, ice rink, golf cottages, etc.

True, but those investments likely boosted the value and number of real estate sales around the mountain. I'm assuming that's what DHS was referring to. That is arguably a much harder metric to derive, but when you're dealing with anything EB5, its all hand waving...

 

[dlague]

The EB5 money raised had nothing to do with real estate sales. It was used to finance the hotels, waterpark, ice rink, golf cottages, etc.

As far as comparing Stowe rev/profits to Jay, you are probably comparing ski operations at Stowe (which is all i think vail is buying) to entire resort operations (skiing, hotels, restaurants, water park etc) at Jay. Jay is nowhere as big as Stowe overall.

Trying to put an earnings yield on the total EB5 money raised has a lot of flaws. First, where do you get $600 mill??? It was $350 raised from EB5 and seven projects, which were not even all at Jay peak. It still would not be the expected return for a real estate deal of that size but while some blame the borrower for being reckless, the lenders were looking way past the fundamentals of a ski resort project and most would have been happy to just get their 10 year green card. That's why no US bank or private equity firm would ever touch the deal because the risk /reward was too high. And did the lenders look at the fees Quiros built in for himself in their offering documents??? (i haven't seen the offering docs but i read somewhere along the line up to 20%, that's a loser from the get go.)

What was truly a mess has come a long way out of the woods with the work by Goldberg and Leisure Resorts. A new buyer is going to buy a nice resort for a big discount to asset value, be operationally profitable, and have way fewer liabilities after the Rajay deal and after they are done with Quiros.

Just please, whoever you are, do something about replacing the Jet chair and the Bonnie!

A[pparently we do not know the details of the shell game that was played. Some of the money might have been used for construction of real estate.

 

[BenedictGomez]

As far as comparing Stowe rev/profits to Jay, you are probably comparing ski operations at Stowe (which is all i think vail is buying) to entire resort operations (skiing, hotels, restaurants, water park etc) at Jay. Jay is nowhere as big as Stowe overall.

Whatever it is, it cant be apples to apples, because there's no way Jay Peak pulls in the operating revenue that Stowe does.

What was truly a mess has come a long way out of the woods with the work by Goldberg and Leisure Resorts. A new buyer is going to buy a nice resort for a big discount to asset value, be operationally profitable, and have way fewer liabilities after the Rajay deal and after they are done with Quiros.

Exactly. What a country!

 

[luvinjaycloud]

A[pparently we do not know the details of the shell game that was played. Some of the money might have been used for construction of real estate.

There was definitely shadiness but there was no new real estate sold for at least the last 7-8 years, when the eb5 flow at jay was peaking. All that new development was rental units.

If you read Michael Goldberg' letter on jaypeakreceivorship.com you'll see $282 million was raised for Jay peak. They didn't complete approximately $17 million of those projects.

So again while a poor return on capital for this type of project it is not as dramatically bad as you are trying to make it. (I don't count anything outside Jay). And if a new buyer can buy the whole lot for 80-100 million and fold it into a larger portfolio then you have a viable ROE.

The expansion of on mountain beds through the EB5 development has offset any benefit to real estate holders from the development of new amenities on mountain that would have goosed real estate values. Prices for real estate have moved slightly higher over the past years under the Stenger Quiros reign.

That being said the future should be very solid for the resort and its homeowners now with the RJ settlement and still some clawback from quiros to come.

 

[VTKilarney]

According to the local newspaper, Stenger is working 10-15 hours per week as a consultant at the rate of $50 per hour. He is also allowed the use of a Volvo.

 

[thetrailboss]

https://vtdigger.org/2017/05/01/ste...il&utm_term=0_dc3c5486db-258a08ef65-405558657


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[MG Skier]

For all you lift construction junkies...... Jay posted the first tram repair video.
I would really enjoy that type of work, but not at that height!

I hate the "Freezer" when the wind hits me after passing over the goat!

http://jaypeakresort.com/about/blog_updates/moving-parts-a-tram-story-ep1#.WQsUXGQrJz8

Enjoy.

 

[Glenn]

Wild! That's a cool video.

 

[thetrailboss]

Kushner family in Beijing: 'Invest $500,000 and immigrate' to US
http://money.cnn.com/2017/05/06/news/jared-kushner-nicole-family-event/index.html


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[BenedictGomez]

Not shocking. The Kushner family is as dirty as the night is long. Being a lifelong north Jersey resident, I've been familiar with Clan Kushner long before the rest of America learned of the name. Safe to say, I am not a fan. The irony is, they are bigtime Democrat donors, with both hands deep in both pockets of the Democratic Party here in Jersey, and combatants of New Jersey Republicans.

What's that you say? You hadn't heard that? That's surprising to hear you say?


Yeah, that's because the media doesn't want you to know that Team Trump actually has deep-seated and deep-pocketed Democrat connections.

The Kushner family is about as "Republican" as a Tiger is vegetarian. With "Republicans" like them, who needs Democrats?

 

[BenedictGomez]

By the way..... if any of you want to read about an amazingly sordid and perverted tale the national media doesn't want you to know about regarding Clan Kushner, copy and paste this into Google:

democrat governor jim mcgreevey & charles kushner bridgewater new jersey prostitute

 

[benski]

The Kushner family is about as "Republican" as a Tiger is vegetarian. With "Republicans" like them, who needs Democrats?

Because I want politicians who believe in science.

 

[benski]

I also would not be so sure Jared is a democrat. Outside his family he was definitely surrounded by republicans till college.