Sunapee sueing the state

[ski_resort_observer]

On paper Cannon looks like the perfect place to have a destination ski resort rather than Sunapee. The key is reconnecting with Mitt which already has some real estate and ending up with one heck of a ski resort. Since Cannon is basically in the northwestern corner of the Whites I don't think it would disaffect anything like the notch. Let's be real here, in the summer it's Disneyland busy over there.

 

[AdironRider]

If that happened to Cannon I would cry. Cannon is one of my favorite places to ski in the east for exactly what it provides now.

 

[threecy]

Curious why the locals are so anit-expansion?

They aren't. While there is certainly a lot of opposition to it, it is not by all means everyone. It would certainly be a big boost to the economy and job market in that area. Take a drive through Newport, for instance - not a place of economic prosperity at all.

The Muellers aren't suing to get money out of the state. They're suing to at least get a fair chance to get this proposal looked at. They've turned Sunapee around and deserve a fair shake in the very least. It's not like they're the only ones who want to do development up there - there are a bunch of homes and condos that have been built in that area recently.

They want to use a relatively small acreage of state land to expand the state-owned ski area, then do the actual development on property they ALREADY OWN. It's not like they're trying to build condos in the state forest.

I don't know what the details of the lease are, but I wonder what people would think if they decided to pull out - and took all of the lifts they installed with them!

 

[ski_resort_observer]

They aren't. While there is certainly a lot of opposition to it, it is not by all means everyone. It would certainly be a big boost to the economy and job market in that area. Take a drive through Newport, for instance - not a place of economic prosperity at all.

The Muellers aren't suing to get money out of the state. They're suing to at least get a fair chance to get this proposal looked at. They've turned Sunapee around and deserve a fair shake in the very least. It's not like they're the only ones who want to do development up there - there are a bunch of homes and condos that have been built in that area recently.

They want to use a relatively small acreage of state land to expand the state-owned ski area, then do the actual development on property they ALREADY OWN. It's not like they're trying to build condos in the state forest.

I don't know what the details of the lease are, but I wonder what people would think if they decided to pull out - and took all of the lifts they installed with them!

From the Meullers perspective I can't disagree with you but from the local's and top state officials perspective it's a done deal, they don't want it. The proposed condos are in a tiny township, Goshen and at the public meetings pretty much everyone was against it. Lynch and top state officials have vowed to never let it happen under their administration. If I was the Meullers I would start supporting candidates who might be more sympothetic to their situation. The Meullers are taking a huge risk with this lawsuit IMHO

 

[threecy]

The Meullers are taking a huge risk with this lawsuit IMHO

I think the locals and the state are taking a huge risk by putting up such a fight, rather than working with them. The Muellers have transformed Sunapee into a great family area and have indirectly made Cannon a better place. Sunapee may never see such a large capital investment ever again if this is shot down.

 

[bobbutts]

I think the locals and the state are taking a huge risk by putting up such a fight, rather than working with them. The Muellers have transformed Sunapee into a great family area and have indirectly made Cannon a better place. Sunapee may never see such a large capital investment ever again if this is shot down.

With a very rough understanding of the situation these are my feelings too. There seem to be many good things happening on the hill and consequently more money coming in to the state and region and more people enjoying our parks. There seem to be fewer voices saying Sunapee should be preserved how it is vs Cannon too.

I wonder if the state would be against an expansion if it were without the condos and if the Muellers would want that.

 

[ski_resort_observer]

The Meullers are having developement problems at Crested Butte as well. Their legal team must be very busy right now. I have alot of respect for them as resort owners but in their effort to grow Triple Peaks they are stepping on alot of toes.
http://www.rockymountainnews.com/drmn/other_business/article/0,2777,DRMN_23916_4458549,00.html

I felt they did everythink right and were very patient in the 10 years of work it took to get Jackson Gore online. Okemo IMHO has been an amazing success businesswise.

They sued ASC when they got screwed out of buying Steamboat(much like Otten/Cook got screwed out of buying SR/Loaf) not once but twice and they lost both times

 

[snowman]

I don't think you understand how New Hampshire works. Local property taxes stay local. Expanding Sunapee to double the skier visits will create some significant state expenditures to upgrade state-maintained roads to get all those Massholes in SUVs to the ski area. I presume you've driven around there? It's goat paths.

That's why I said county...it was in relation to the property taxes, unless it's a municipality? I doubt that out in the woods?

The state should recoup money for the roads from FUEL taxes and tolls (there's a toll on the 95, not sure if there's any on the major north south ski country interstate in the south??! I can't recall). The fuel tax, is, assuming of course people from Mass buy fuel in NH. If the place goes from a day area to a multi day area, I would imagine the chances someone is going to buy fuel in NH goes from 50% to 100%, making your road argument and argument for the opposite. In addition, I would assume the roads take far more of a beating from Mass residents treking to manchester etc, to buy stuff tax free. The county would likely also be handing a percentage of property tax money over to the state anyway, for snow removal etc. That money would go into the general coffers of the NH dept of transportaion and technically end up being spent on roads?

Now, when you go to the expansion itself, you're employing more people. More people working means more income tax for the state. I don't know the exact intricacies of NH taxation, however, I'm quite sure those statements are valid and are the reason why most every gov't everywhere is pro development. We have a ski resort a little off the beaten' path here, like Sunapee. If a private developer wanted to install new lifts and build condos to bring business to that economically depressed area, the premier (same as governor) would show up with tears in his eyes, his blessing and a 3 million dollar assistance cheque.

 

[snowman]

but I wonder what people would think if they decided to pull out - and took all of the lifts they installed with them!

It's not like they don't have other places they could put them. I wonder if they're allowed to do that? They could likely win that court battle if they lose the first. I think there's validity to their claim. I don't know why they would be dumping money into a place like that if it wasn't true. I think the gov't has been stalling them on this saying "we'll get it worked out" and they finally said enough is enough, we can't wait any longer. I think it would be hillarious if they lose and yank their lifts.

 

[deadheadskier]

That's why I said county...it was in relation to the property taxes, unless it's a municipality? I doubt that out in the woods?

The state should recoup money for the roads from FUEL taxes and tolls (there's a toll on the 95, not sure if there's any on the major north south ski country interstate in the south??! I can't recall). The fuel tax, is, assuming of course people from Mass buy fuel in NH. If the place goes from a day area to a multi day area, I would imagine the chances someone is going to buy fuel in NH goes from 50% to 100%, making your road argument and argument for the opposite. In addition, I would assume the roads take far more of a beating from Mass residents treking to manchester etc, to buy stuff tax free. The county would likely also be handing a percentage of property tax money over to the state anyway, for snow removal etc. That money would go into the general coffers of the NH dept of transportaion and technically end up being spent on roads?

Now, when you go to the expansion itself, you're employing more people. More people working means more income tax for the state. I don't know the exact intricacies of NH taxation, however, I'm quite sure those statements are valid and are the reason why most every gov't everywhere is pro development. We have a ski resort a little off the beaten' path here, like Sunapee. If a private developer wanted to install new lifts and build condos to bring business to that economically depressed area, the premier (same as governor) would show up with tears in his eyes, his blessing and a 3 million dollar assistance cheque.

I think you're going to have a hard time convinvin the locals that raising fuel taxes to pay for roads needed for private expansion is a good thing. Doing so, you decrease support of the project solely to those interested because they might work there or ski there. I just don't see the locals buying that oh, this fuel tax is targeted at out of staters.

There is no income tax in New Hampshire, so no benefit for the state there.

I would definitely be pro expansion to bring more jobs to the area, but it is state land and the benefits to the state would be limited to increased property tax base and corporate tax. Unfortunately, the jobs created would be low paying and seasonal. The Muellers would have an easier time convincing the state to allow them to put a Walmart at the base, than their expansion plans.

 

[snowman]

I think you're going to have a hard time convinvin the locals that raising fuel taxes to pay for roads needed for private expansion is a good thing.

I didn't say anything about raising fuel taxes?!?! A fuel tax is a consumption tax. More people in the state consuming fuel means more fuel tax is collected automatically. The roads around ski developemts are generally privately owned and maintained as well, so they're not asking for any money either. The extra fuel consumption of the outsiders is going to pay for the repair of the locals roads, not the opposite.

Doing so, you decrease support of the project solely to those interested because they might work there or ski there. I just don't see the locals buying that oh, this fuel tax is targeted at out of staters.

The fuel tax already exists.

There is no income tax in New Hampshire, so no benefit for the state there.

You've gotta be incorrect there. There's no way a state can run on no sales or income tax. If this was the case, no one would live in Mass...

Unfortunately, the jobs created would be low paying and seasonal.

A job is better than NO job.

 

[snoseek]

^^^^^ for your info we indeed have no sales or income tax in N.H.


we leach off other states.

edit-I really like how this state is run for the most part and will miss it.

 

[deadheadskier]

I didn't say anything about raising fuel taxes?!?! A fuel tax is a consumption tax. More people in the state consuming fuel means more fuel tax is collected automatically. The roads around ski developemts are generally privately owned and maintained as well, so they're not asking for any money either. The extra fuel consumption of the outsiders is going to pay for the repair of the locals roads, not the opposite.



The fuel tax already exists.



You've gotta be incorrect there. There's no way a state can run on no sales or income tax. If this was the case, no one would live in Mass...



A job is better than NO job.

I stand corrected on the fuel tax. I thought you were implying additional tax per gallon and misuderstood that you were referring to increased tax due to the higher volume of vehicles on the road resultant of the expansion.


And as snoseek pointed out, no I'm not incorrect. New Hampshire lives by their motto 'Live Free or Die' - there is no sales tax, nor income tax. The three main income centers for the state are property tax, corporate tax and selling booze.

 

[deadheadskier]

and yes, a job is better than NO job, but like I said, these are not the kind of jobs that the state government of New Hampshire will put a high priority on. A Walmart would offer more and better jobs (not that they're good jobs, but they are year round) than a ski area. That's all I was saying

 

[snoseek]

N.H. has always had a very low unemployment rate. Not really that desperate....

 

[snowman]

N.H. has always had a very low unemployment rate. Not really that desperate....

I have no idea about the area around Sunapee, however, Threecy was indicating it was economically depressed and could use any jobs that could be thrown their way. Like most places, I imagine they're begging for entry level employees in Manchester etc., however, people who want to stay where they've always lived in places like Sunapee are probably hard up for work. If you don't create SOME economic development in remote places you're just going to end up with total migration to the cities and an end to the way of life you were trying to protect in the first place.

I can't believe there's no income tax in NH?!! That's insane! I could understand it if there were oil rigs all over the place, but there's not! Residents have to pay federal income tax of course, right??? Are property taxes insane? Are corporate taxes insane?? Fill me in, I'm intrigued?

 

[AdironRider]

NH does perfectly fine with no income taxes. Not sure on the corporate taxes but property taxes dont seem to be rediculously high, albeit higher than other states. The NH liquor stores really bring in the revenue, theres never a shortage of customers at those badboys. NYE, even the store in my local town of Exeter was mobbed.

 

[snoseek]

property taxes are very high-but overall tax burden is about as good as it gets. the state is hanging for dear life with the no state income-sales taxes but as more people here they bring their need for excess b.s. with them. southern part of the state has seen massive growth (as has york county in maine), from southern new england relocating north for obvious reasons. This is why things will eventually have to change in n.h.. Kind of funny being surounded by states like maine, mass, vt, who are so high in taxes and having such a low tax burden, shows the state has done well with overall spending in the past. trying to not get politcal.......

Also- no sales tax but we have an 8% restaurant, hotel tax, plus crazy stupid tolls that are about to go up. just another example of how n.h. is the ultimate tourist leach.

 

[ski_resort_observer]

I have no idea about the area around Sunapee, however, Threecy was indicating it was economically depressed and could use any jobs that could be thrown their way.

I can't believe there's no income tax in NH?!! That's insane! I could understand it if there were oil rigs all over the place, but there's not! Residents have to pay federal income tax of course, right??? Are property taxes insane? Are corporate taxes insane?? Fill me in, I'm intrigued?

Suggestion....spend time in the place your commenting on and your posts will have some credibility

property taxes are very high-but overall tax burden is about as good as it gets. the state is hanging for dear life with the no state income-sales taxes but as more people here they bring their need for excess b.s. with them. southern part of the state has seen massive growth (as has york county in maine), from southern new england relocating north for obvious reasons. This is why things will eventually have to change in n.h.. Kind of funny being surounded by states like maine, mass, vt, who are so high in taxes and having such a low tax burden, shows the state has done well with overall spending in the past. trying to not get politcal......

There have been several attempts in the last few years by legislators in Concord to pass a state sales tax. Not gotten very far...yet. According to my old college roommate who has been a builder in Lake Sunapee area for 30 years says alot of the state fees, which are off the tax radar, are much more expensive(in-state tuition for NH public colleges, for example, is second highest in the country, much higher than Mass) and then there are the toll booths. I don't mind them(between my place in Maine and the MRV I go thru 4, 2 in NH and 2 in Maine) but I love having no toll booths in Vermont or on the Northway along the Daks.

 

[deadheadskier]

I can't speak to corporate taxes. Property taxes are a bit higher. I've been looking at condos near Portland and then comparable properties in NH. For $160K condo outside of Portland, the tax is around $2200. A similar property outside of Portsmouth NH would have taxes around $3000. So yes, they're higher compared to here, but not ridiculous so. Even at that, the savings I would enjoy by not having 8.5% of my income gone in income taxes, far outweighs the higher property tax. Nevermind the lack of sales tax on top of that. I'm not certain how the property tax compares in Mass.