The Dismantling Begins

[bobbutts]

Sunapee is a significantly inferior mountain (IMO) than Cannon but it still is essentially the same lift ticket price.

Sunapee's has the location and snowmaking/grooming to satisfy the intermediate family. What I'm saying is that for a big part of the market it may be more attractive vs. Cannon. Lack of vertical and advanced terrain not a big drawback for plenty of people based on the crowds there.

 

[threecy]

All that said... let's talk Sunapee since we are comparing these two operations which are frequently compared. What weekend/holiday discounts do you get as a NH resident at state owned but leased out Sunapee?

I'm not sure how accurate or recently updated this is (my ski visits at Sunapee have all been industry comps), but here's a list of discounts (including NH resident discounts): http://www.onthesnow.com/new-hampshire/mount-sunapee/lifttickets_guide.html. Again, it should be noted that NH taxpayers have received millions from lease payments, and locals have also received large portions of real estate taxes - prior to the lease, these revenue sources were minimal and zero.

Sunapee is a significantly inferior mountain (IMO) than Cannon but it still is essentially the same lift ticket price.

I haven't seen anything at Sunapee that could compare with Cannon's expert trails. That said, Sunapee is an intermediate (as are most skiers) mountain and now (after the improvements from the lease) a very popular one. I don't have the numbers handy, but if I'm not mistaken, Sunapee draws at least twice as many skier vists? They also receive lots of praise for their conditions, which (though perhaps it's not fair to compare) is not something Cannon often gets, aside from epic White Mountain pow days. Prior to the lease, this was not the case.

A private operator could be charging $70+ for Cannon for all we know. I am sure you will reply that that could be controlled in the lease. But if you keep putting in controls to make the leasor not change anything, it will not be an attractive offer....

a) Survey parties involved and find out what's crucial to keeping the skiing experience at Cannon authentic to the area. I would suspect concerns about real estate, trail alterations, pricing, and current staff would be high on the list.

b) Compile a sensible lease proposal and shop it.

c) A lessee is found, the Cannon experience is improved without being negatively altered, and the state is able to replace financial risk with guaranteed revenue. If a lessee is not found based upon the proposal, the ski area obviously stays under state control. The state can then either alter the proposal, or at least know that it has attempted to explore possibilities.

 

[deadheadskier]

C. is total bull shit.

the state is not going to bargain. You say over and over that stipulations could be put in place where by Cannon has to still offer the same discounts to residents as it always has and that overall pricing remains low.

The state will look at the guaranteed revenue advantage and nothing else. Cannon gets leased and the pricing will absolutely shoot up to Waterville and Loon levels. It 100% becomes a privately operated for profit ski area on land the state owns just like Sunapee has. Your foolish if you think it would be different. That's exactly what happened with Sunapee. What makes you think it would be anything different with Cannon?

further to C - what more do you want to see improved? From all reports, the snowmaking and grooming is better than ever, the lodge has been expanded extremely well, Mittersill is now lift serviced and on the map (debateable of course whether that's an improvement). I'm not a Cannon skier, but do follow reports of those who do frequent the mountain. Short of miraculously bringing in 100 inches more a year of natural snow, I'd say the mountain has operated the best it ever has the last few years - during a recession!!!

Sunapee 'State Park' now essentially has ZERO resemblence to an actual State Park. You have stated it now brings in 500K or so in revenue to the state. What's the point of the State even owning it if it no longer offers a park experience to the residents and is operated like a private business?

Recognizing these facts, if I were charged with managing the state budget, this is what I would do. I'd sell Sunapee all together to CNL / Tim & Diane Mueller for say 15 million. I'd also let them develop all the land how they choose with they receiving the building revenue/profit of the development, the state receiving the revenue of the land transactions. The combined ski area sale revenue and slopeside land sale revenue for resort development would probably equal 50 million at minimum. Not only would your lease proposal take 100+ years to offer such a pay back, the annual property tax revenue alone from such development would make your 500K lease look like a 5 dollar bill to the state annually.

If you have such a problem with the State deficit and how parks can help off set it, let's look at fully maximizing Sunapee. Sunapee for all intents and purposes is private enteprise now and a vastly underperforming one both for it's owners and for the state compared to what the real market potential could be for the area.

My argument with you started with how ridiculous I think it is that you're so hell bent and focused on bringing in 500K a year towards a state budget that's 100s of millions in deficit. It's a drop in the bucket. Why focus on a drop in the bucket, when you can fill the whole thing with what's already been given away to private business in Sunapee?

 

[riverc0il]

I doubt DHS is going to get much disagreement from threecy about completely selling off Sunapee to a private owner. :lol:

 

[threecy]

the state is not going to bargain. You say over and over that stipulations could be put in place where by Cannon has to still offer the same discounts to residents as it always has and that overall pricing remains low.

Bargaining vs. keeping the character of the area are two different things. I don't have a copy of the original Sunapee lease agreement, but I guarantee you there are restrictions in it put in place by the state.

The state will look at the guaranteed revenue advantage and nothing else.

Cannon gets leased and the pricing will absolutely shoot up to Waterville and Loon levels.

Cannon: $66. Waterville: $67.

It 100% becomes a privately operated for profit ski area on land the state owns just like Sunapee has. Your foolish if you think it would be different. That's exactly what happened with Sunapee. What makes you think it would be anything different with Cannon?

In order to generate a profit on a long term lease (I use that term, as Blue Hills in MA was under an annual lease for many years and was operated as such), the operator must produce a good product. Sunapee's product is dramatically better than it used to be and as a result, hundreds of thousands of new-to-Sunapee skiers have visited.

Short of miraculously bringing in 100 inches more a year of natural snow, I'd say the mountain has operated the best it ever has the last few years - during a recession!!!

I can't comment on this without being political. Many business owners in New Hampshire can tell you how that has happened.

Sunapee 'State Park' now essentially has ZERO resemblence to an actual State Park. You have stated it now brings in 500K or so in revenue to the state. What's the point of the State even owning it if it no longer offers a park experience to the residents and is operated like a private business?

Seriously? Have you visited Sunapee State Park? The ski area is a relatively small portion.

 

[threecy]

I doubt DHS is going to get much disagreement from threecy about completely selling off Sunapee to a private owner. :lol:

I doubt the Muellers would want to buy Sunapee State Park. The State Park is a big part of that area. Selling Sunapee State Park should be a last resort.

 

[deadheadskier]

Cannon: $66. Waterville: $67.

That's pretty much irrelevant as the most valuable resident discount is for season pass holders.

Watervillle - $839
Sunapee - $959
Cannon - $729
Cannon NH resident - $546 (almost positive it's $475 for a renewal at end of season)

You're upset about the state budget deficit. I just gave you a way to generate $100 million, yet you still think a lease that brings in 500K annually is the better option. 500k is NOTHING. Even just letting the Muellers build 25 Okemo Mansions slopeside at Sunapee would bring in the same tax revenue annually as the lease you propose.

 

[tjf67]

I get pretty good info from this site. This thread is a great example. From someone that does not have a dog in the race I am bein swayed by threesey. Cheapy your rebuttles make sense but the person jabs you put out there draw attention from the point you are trying to make.

 

[UVSHTSTRM]

Not to sound political or cold, but I have no problem paying a small nominal fee to something like Cannon. I like the fact that my tax dollars at some point have contributed to Cannon. Let's be honest as a tax payer I like seeing my taxes go towards something that actually affects me. Well unless you want to talk about I89 being repaved for the 50th time in 10 years. Boy now thats stimulus money at good work.

 

[deadheadskier]

I get pretty good info from this site. This thread is a great example. From someone that does not have a dog in the race I am bein swayed by threesey. Cheapy your rebuttles make sense but the person jabs you put out there draw attention from the point you are trying to make.

yet, you throw a personal jab right back at me. nice one imuscle

If you're on threecy's side, I would assume you'd also like to see Gore and Whiteface leased? NY State has far greater deficit problems than NH

Well unless you want to talk about I89 being repaved for the 50th time in 10 years. Boy now thats stimulus money at good work.

right? That must be best cared for highway in the country. 101 was repaved this past year even though the road was in perfect shape

 

[Puck it]

Not to sound political or cold, but I have no problem paying a small nominal fee to something like Cannon. I like the fact that my tax dollars at some point have contributed to Cannon. Let's be honest as a tax payer I like seeing my taxes go towards something that actually affects me. Well unless you want to talk about I89 being repaved for the 50th time in 10 years. Boy now thats stimulus money at good work.

NH does have the best roads. A lot better then MA.

Also, why don't we selling the naming rights to the park system.

How does "Proctor & Gamble White Mountain National Forest" or "Raytheon Cannon Mtn Ski Area" sound?

 

[tjf67]

yet, you throw a personal jab right back at me. nice one imuscle

If you're on threecy's side, I would assume you'd also like to see Gore and Whiteface leased? NY State has far greater deficit problems than NH



right? That must be best cared for highway in the country. 101 was repaved this past year even though the road was in perfect shape

Gore an Whiteface being leased? I would think it being mulled over somewhere in Albany. Not sure I would feel about it. Wht I do know is neither of the hills you are talking about can hold a candle to Whiteface.:smash:

 

[Puck it]

 

[deadheadskier]

Gore an Whiteface being leased? I would think it being mulled over somewhere in Albany. Not sure I would feel about it. Wht I do know is neither of the hills you are talking about can hold a candle to Whiteface.:smash:

Would love to check out Whiteface someday. Hard to motivate to travel so far when better skiing can be had 90% of the time on this side of the lake in the Northern Greens.

 

[threecy]

Also, why don't we selling the naming rights to the park system.

How does "Proctor & Gamble White Mountain National Forest" or "Raytheon Cannon Mtn Ski Area" sound?

Actually, there is already an agreement with Eastern Mountain Sports for a form of corporate sponsorship in NH State Parks...http://www.unionleader.com/article....rticleId=222cc74b-02bf-4f80-93ee-5c11509d96aa

You're upset about the state budget deficit. I just gave you a way to generate $100 million, yet you still think a lease that brings in 500K annually is the better option. 500k is NOTHING.

How did you come up with that $100M? What makes you think the Muellers, who have sold off most of their ski area assets, would spend $15M for land that they cannot touch?

It's not necessary. Sunapee would be better served if Lynch et al would step aside and let them connect the state property to the hundreds of acres of private property they have awaiting development. That development would increase lease payments, as well as dramatically improve the local job market and local tax revenue.

Again, prior to the Sunapee lease, the state owned and operated ski areas were in very rough shape. The Sunapee lease has turned a money-losing, falling apart operation, into a perennial moneymaker that offers a much better experience for skiers.

Thanks in part to that lease, but more so to us taxpayers, Cannon's facilities have been improved. Still, outside of good snow years, it loses money. The state has enough budget problems right now - no sense having the risk of picking up additional debt from the ski industry.

500k is NOTHING.

As of I believe two years ago, NH State Parks were $1.8M in debt. $500K is HUGE. This is New Hampshire, not Massachusetts - the population, revenues, and expenses are much smaller. If one were to go through the budget and ignore everything they deem to be "nothing," they'd never figure out how to balance it.




Again, in a time in which the state is closing and selling long held assets, we the people are dumping millions into a state owned and operated ski area, at a time in which multiple taxpaying privately owned ski areas in the state are struggling to stay afloat.

 

[deadheadskier]

I would bet that the sale of slopeside state owned land plus the property taxes of those properties would equal 100 million in 15-20 years. Your 500K lease would take 200 years to hit that figure.

One $2.5 million slopeside Okemoesque mansion would bring in 20K worth of tax revenue. Just one house.

The Muellers might not want to buy it, but CNL probably would snap it up.

 

[Black Phantom]

Would love to check out Whiteface someday. Hard to motivate to travel so far when better skiing can be had 90% of the time on this side of the lake in the Northern Greens.

Now that is pretty silly. Isn't your home hill Ragged?

Changing the argument by attempting to build a straw-man does not make any sense.

 

[tjf67]

Would love to check out Whiteface someday. Hard to motivate to travel so far when better skiing can be had 90% of the time on this side of the lake in the Northern Greens.

95%.

 

[thetrailboss]

Now that is pretty silly. Isn't your home hill Ragged?

Changing the argument by attempting to build a straw-man does not make any sense.

:blink:

 

[deadheadskier]

Now that is pretty silly. Isn't your home hill Ragged?

Changing the argument by attempting to build a straw-man does not make any sense.

I ski 50% of my days there out of convenience. My schedule allows for 5-6 days in the Northern Greens most seasons. I lived in Northern VT for almost ten years.

My point was it's 3.5 hours for me to get to Stowe/Sugarbush/MRG. It's over 5 to get to Whiteface. I ski pretty much weekends only. It's relatively easy to do a weekend trip to Stowe. Whiteface, not so much.