The Dismantling Begins

[Mapnut]

Since this is now the Leasing Cannon thread, I have a question. Who is out there who would actually want to lease a ski area and have the resources to do it right? If the Muellers were interested, I'd guess they might already be talking to the State about it. I was surprised that all the former ASC resorts found buyers, who are doing a good job with Mt. Snow, Sunday River etc, but I expect they have their hands full and are not looking for new projects any time soon. Who else is there? I'm not saying this to be negative or argumentative. Does anyone know of entities that already exist that might be interested? Or have an idea who might want to form a corporation to lease Cannon?

 

[threecy]

Since this is now the Leasing Cannon thread, I have a question. Who is out there who would actually want to lease a ski area and have the resources to do it right? If the Muellers were interested, I'd guess they might already be talking to the State about it. I was surprised that all the former ASC resorts found buyers, who are doing a good job with Mt. Snow, Sunday River etc, but I expect they have their hands full and are not looking for new projects any time soon. Who else is there? I'm not saying this to be negative or argumentative. Does anyone know of entities that already exist that might be interested? Or have an idea who might want to form a corporation to lease Cannon?

I can't give specifics, but I think you'd have applicants. There have been a lot of surprises in recent years with ski area turnover - whether it be a small-ski-area operator from the midwest taking over Mt. Snow, or a larger one taking over Sunday River, Sugarloaf, and Loon, or a mid-Atlantic operator taking over Blue Hills. While those operators all probably have their hands full at this point, there were others interested as well. There would be an advantage with Cannon vs. most of those listed areas, as the infrastructure is generally in better shape from the millions of tax dollars invested in recent years.

One theme with those operators, which would benefit Cannon's image greatly, is snowmaking, snowmaking, snowmaking.

 

[bobbutts]

C. is total bull shit.
My argument with you started with how ridiculous I think it is that you're so hell bent and focused on bringing in 500K a year towards a state budget that's 100s of millions in deficit. It's a drop in the bucket. Why focus on a drop in the bucket, when you can fill the whole thing with what's already been given away to private business in Sunapee?

Rational or not, it seems to me people are rabid over finance.
They look at 500k differently than they did a short time ago.

 

[Puck it]

I can't give specifics, but I think you'd have applicants. There have been a lot of surprises in recent years with ski area turnover - whether it be a small-ski-area operator from the midwest taking over Mt. Snow, or a larger one taking over Sunday River, Sugarloaf, and Loon, or a mid-Atlantic operator taking over Blue Hills. While those operators all probably have their hands full at this point, there were others interested as well. There would be an advantage with Cannon vs. most of those listed areas, as the infrastructure is generally in better shape from the millions of tax dollars invested in recent years.

One theme with those operators, which would benefit Cannon's image greatly, is snowmaking, snowmaking, snowmaking.

And they have been doing that the last two years. This is the reason the Tram does not run all week long. That money was moved to the snowmaking budget.

 

[threecy]

And they have been doing that the last two years. This is the reason the Tram does not run all week long. That money was moved to the snowmaking budget.

There's a difference between moving more money to an operational budget and overhauling the entire system. Though certainly further north and having different weather, Cannon's snowmaking system isn't in the same league as the Triple Peaks areas (Sunapee/Okemo) or Peak Resorts' areas (such as Mt. Snow).

 

[Puck it]

There's a difference between moving more money to an operational budget and overhauling the entire system. Though certainly further north and having different weather, Cannon's snowmaking system isn't in the same league as the Triple Peaks areas (Sunapee/Okemo) or Peak Resorts' areas (such as Mt. Snow).

Point. Counterpoint. Black. White.



They have been doing a great job with the snowmaking the last two years. Cannonball (aka Profile) was skiing great last year and that trail was horrible before the new manager got there and is extremely difficult to cover well.

No go ahead and throw a stone in my pond!!!!!

 

[AdironRider]

Threecy wont get over it, Ive already been through this with him. He doesnt like the lift or how much it costs, and just doesnt want it, no logic or reason will convince him otherwise, even other options that would make the state money. Fine, to each their own.

That being said, Cannon has something going for it. Everyone who skis has at least heard of it. Its right on the highway, has a tram, now four distinct trail pods each with its own character (Mitt, front five, summit/hards, and Tuckerbrook - five if you want to consider the HSQ its own trail pod. For a mountain very similar to Whiteface, theyve got more to offer in terms of variety and aspect variation (albeit with less vert pretty much all around and excluding the slides which are open all of like 5-10 days a year). Gladed terrain is solid both on and off map, and has seen consistent improvement under the new management team from snowmaking, to groomin, to base area and other mountain improvements.

Pricing is still relatively modest. Cannon's state run operation still undercuts NY's both in season passes, and day tickets I believe (I havent paid window rates pretty much ever, but I think Whiteface/Gore are in the 70's on weekends). NH still gives in state discounts on passes, day tickets midweek, etc.

Plus, theres room to grow. Profile lake leaves plenty of water to eventually build it into a real snowmaking powerhouse, for no cost in term of water. Pretty much everywhere else needs to at least build a pond, or shoot through hoops to get approval.

Cannon still has that old school NH vibe as well, which is made by the locals who ski there, not how sweet the lodge is, or a new lift on Mitt. I highly doubt those folks are going to make a mass exodus and start skiing Bretton Woods or Loon.

 

[tjf67]

Threecy wont get over it, Ive already been through this with him. He doesnt like the lift or how much it costs, and just doesnt want it, no logic or reason will convince him otherwise, even other options that would make the state money. Fine, to each their own.

That being said, Cannon has something going for it. Everyone who skis has at least heard of it. Its right on the highway, has a tram, now four distinct trail pods each with its own character (Mitt, front five, summit/hards, and Tuckerbrook - five if you want to consider the HSQ its own trail pod. For a mountain very similar to Whiteface, theyve got more to offer in terms of variety and aspect variation (albeit with less vert pretty much all around and excluding the slides which are open all of like 5-10 days a year). Gladed terrain is solid both on and off map, and has seen consistent improvement under the new management team from snowmaking, to groomin, to base area and other mountain improvements.

Pricing is still relatively modest. Cannon's state run operation still undercuts NY's both in season passes, and day tickets I believe (I havent paid window rates pretty much ever, but I think Whiteface/Gore are in the 70's on weekends). NH still gives in state discounts on passes, day tickets midweek, etc.

Plus, theres room to grow. Profile lake leaves plenty of water to eventually build it into a real snowmaking powerhouse, for no cost in term of water. Pretty much everywhere else needs to at least build a pond, or shoot through hoops to get approval.

Cannon still has that old school NH vibe as well, which is made by the locals who ski there, not how sweet the lodge is, or a new lift on Mitt. I highly doubt those folks are going to make a mass exodus and start skiing Bretton Woods or Loon.

Other than there lack of snow there is not much that Cannon can stack up to against Whiteface.

 

[AdironRider]

As I said, exclude the slides, cause they are rarely open, and Cannon has more terrain variety. I didnt say Franconia has more going for it than LP, or anything else, but for two mountains that have relative the same mountain shape (think mitt similar to new ridge terrain, gondi to tram, summit quad and high speed quad.

Looking at just terrain variety, Cannon has the front five which Whiteface doesnt have, the beginner areas are moot, and Mitt offers more than burnt ridge at this time. Plus Cannon has the hards, which for two mountains that groom almost everything, the only thing that compares is Empire, and thats open about as much as the slides. At least the hards are open most of the season. Whiteface's glades are weak compared to Cannon. Noone goes to Whiteface for the glades, but there are some sweet off map ones, but nothing more sweet than what Cannon has. Very few areas have a glade like Kinsman. Whiteface doesnt have anything like Tramline, althouh the gondi line has been a sweet poach from time to time, just sucks getting out of there.

Its a loose comparison, and I already admitted Whiteface has more vert going for it in pretty much every trail pod, but in terms of variety Cannons got it beat. Overall package, right now that still goes to Whiteface, which is the overall point of my previous post, that Cannon has a lot going for it, but its not quite there yet. Its probably a better comparison business wise to Gore in terms of where they stand now, as both areas are standing on the verge of greatness right now. Whiteface is a better comparo though when you look at just the terrain offered.

 

[threecy]

Threecy wont get over it, Ive already been through this with him. He doesnt like the lift or how much it costs, and just doesnt want it, no logic or reason will convince him otherwise, even other options that would make the state money. Fine, to each their own.

Why should Cannon open a new base area operation (Mittersill double) when, as seen just a few posts ago, they've had to shutter the Tram a few days a week to save money?

Also, why does it cost $1 million MORE to install a brand new double chairlift at Mittersill vs. a brand new triple chairlift at Middlebury? That sure seems counterintuitive, doesn't it?

 

[AdironRider]

Dude, I dont care, Im for the Mitt expansion, you're against it. Get over it.

 

[tjf67]

As I said, exclude the slides, cause they are rarely open, and Cannon has more terrain variety. I didnt say Franconia has more going for it than LP, or anything else, but for two mountains that have relative the same mountain shape (think mitt similar to new ridge terrain, gondi to tram, summit quad and high speed quad.

Looking at just terrain variety, Cannon has the front five which Whiteface doesnt have, the beginner areas are moot, and Mitt offers more than burnt ridge at this time. Plus Cannon has the hards, which for two mountains that groom almost everything, the only thing that compares is Empire, and thats open about as much as the slides. At least the hards are open most of the season. Whiteface's glades are weak compared to Cannon. Noone goes to Whiteface for the glades, but there are some sweet off map ones, but nothing more sweet than what Cannon has. Very few areas have a glade like Kinsman. Whiteface doesnt have anything like Tramline, althouh the gondi line has been a sweet poach from time to time, just sucks getting out of there.

Its a loose comparison, and I already admitted Whiteface has more vert going for it in pretty much every trail pod, but in terms of variety Cannons got it beat. Overall package, right now that still goes to Whiteface, which is the overall point of my previous post, that Cannon has a lot going for it, but its not quite there yet. Its probably a better comparison business wise to Gore in terms of where they stand now, as both areas are standing on the verge of greatness right now. Whiteface is a better comparo though when you look at just the terrain offered.

Ok if you say so.
Tramline is not open much at cannon. Any more than the Slides?
The ghondi line is a stupid ski. I dont know anyone that skiis it. usually some young and dumb kids do but other than that no one. Just sayin

I

 

[deadheadskier]

Also, why does it cost $1 million MORE to install a brand new double chairlift at Mittersill vs. a brand new triple chairlift at Middlebury? That sure seems counterintuitive, doesn't it?

Instead of asking this question, why not explain it for us? You obviously have to know. I mean if you know the inner workings of Cannon's finances, you must know the answer to the above question.

 

[AdironRider]

Dude, I was a passholder at both mountains, and my faith to Whiteface can be seen for years on this board. Relax man, Im not trying to bash anything. Christ, look at my name here, it says enough. Theres no need for a Whiteface is better, you suck attitude here.

Fair point though on tramline, so well exclude that and the slides and Cannon still trumps it on gladed terrain and the mitt expansion ..... at this point in time. LP is still the best ski town in the East, if not the country and the ADK smokes the Whites in terms of overall backcountry options. Snowmaking is probably better at Whiteface still, but Cannon's coming back from what Ive seen and heard the last two years.

For two state run mountains its fair to compare terrain, and right now Whiteface is still the better hill, but Cannon's coming, its not a bad thing, and wont hurt Whiteface in the least, two completely different markets.

 

[tjf67]

Dude, I was a passholder at both mountains, and my faith to Whiteface can be seen for years on this board. Relax man, Im not trying to bash anything. Christ, look at my name here, it says enough. Theres no need for a Whiteface is better, you suck attitude here.

Fair point though on tramline, so well exclude that and the slides and Cannon still trumps it on gladed terrain and the mitt expansion ..... at this point in time. LP is still the best ski town in the East, if not the country and the ADK smokes the Whites in terms of overall backcountry options. Snowmaking is probably better at Whiteface still, but Cannon's coming back from what Ive seen and heard the last two years.

For two state run mountains its fair to compare terrain, and right now Whiteface is still the better hill, but Cannon's coming, its not a bad thing, and wont hurt Whiteface in the least, two completely different markets.

Not bashing. I like Cannon. Where did I say cannon sucks?

I said the Ghondi like is a stupid ski. Did you take that as a Cannon bash?

 

[threecy]

Instead of asking this question, why not explain it for us? You obviously have to know. I mean if you know the inner workings of Cannon's finances, you must know the answer to the above question.

Hint #1: Ordering a brand new, rarely produced lift in May.

It's sort of like a family that's been planning their vacation for months, but never bothered to get a reservation. Instead, they roll the dice and show up that night, and pay a handsome premium for a particular type of room.

 

[deadheadskier]

what's done is done. no sense in worrying about it now. You and I have both paid our $2 towards it. Best $2 worth of tax money I've ever spent IMO.