The NEW Magic Mountain

[skithetrees]

Kinderspiel may actually be, weirdly, one of my favorite trails. It’s almost always empty, usually groomed out pretty good, and has interesting fall lines. It’s fun to rip some fast turns on.

 

[ne_skier]

Also leads to Thorner's Corner, which isn't much of a trail, but goes through one of the more photogenic nooks of the mountain with the lift and that creek.

 

[slatham]

Regarding snowmaking improvements, way before more pipe, they need more pumping capacity full stop.It should priority #1. And 2. And 3.

 

[NYDB]

unless someone wins the lottery and buys Magic,

you have UMC, LMC, medium, trick, vertigo, wand, show off, carumba,lower redline, hocus pocus, upper and lower wiz (not mid) tali and sorcerer.

If they could get to point where they reliably and consistently made snow on these 13 trails I would be a happy pass holder.

I thought we were heading that direction until a couple of years ago.

UYS is a pipe dream. I’d rather see them fix whatever they need to do to get mystery online but even that is like number 25 on the list.

 

[letitsnow1]

Supposedly the pipes on witch to black line work, it would be awesome if they made snow there. I thought it was great when they made snow on wizard top to bottom last year, it would be even better if they could get to it before march

 

[ne_skier]

From what I heard, Wizard is a pretty tough one to make snow on due to the aforementioned pumping capacity issues, so typically snow is only made on Upper Wizard to the Talisman intersection and Lower Wizard starting at the Talisman exit. I'm sure I expressed my delight when they pounded Middle Wizard with snow last March - makes for a great top to bottom groomed cruiser, and this is coming from someone who almost always keeps to the bumps and the woods. I believe Wizard in its entirety was one of the handful of trails open on closing day last April.

 

[Newpylong]

Witch to Black would be great but it's going to take a ton of snow... And they can't even get to the current 60 ish % or so total snowmaking acreage. Mystery has had some small scavenging of pipe and hydrants last I knew. It would be a great add if they can actually cover it.

Long story short, I wouldn't expect much prior to a pumping capacity improvement.

 

[slatham]

Putting reasons and fault aside, for the past several years Magic has been unable to start snowmaking at the proper time - November 15th. This year in particular was a double sucker punch as they missed the best early windows while down, and once running had literally 4 weeks of crap temps.

Also, pipes on Mystery only go down to where it crosses under Green lift and over the creek. Bottom section has no pipes.

 

[Magicsnowboard]

It sounds like the issue may be pumping capacity, but does anyone know what prevents more aggressive early snowmaking (beyond weather, permits, etc.)? I was expecting more of a show of force this week, and granted; I have not been up yet, so they may blow a lot more than I've seen. But with a week of very cold wet bulb temps, they've finished blowing in through the wood section of Magic Carpet and started on lower Magic Carpet and Hocus Pocus (plus some base area strengthening); helpful but not a meaningful terrain expansion. Obviously, they got snow so that the actual trail count will increase meaningfully (and it's always possible that financial considerations affected snowmaking).

However, I worry they will never be able to open in any meaningful way on non-natural snow pre-Martin Luther King Day. Like many people with kids in school and a full-time job, 25% of my possible ski days occur before MLK Day. The following may be a pipe dream, but for Magic to provide what, in my experience, would be a full skiing/riding experience, they'd need to offer two routes off Green and two off Red. In other words, one west side route (e.g., Wizard, to Talisman, maybe to Hocus Pocus via bailout, although I don't think that's possible). The typical Upper Magic Carpet to Medium (or through the woods). Plus, Lower Magic Carpet off Green, and Wand to some combo of Show Off, Carumba/Hocus Pocus.

Such a combo would spread people out, make the mountain ski much bigger, offer various difficulty levels, and increase the overall experience. I imagine most folks ski only 6-8 runs a day anyway, so there would be limited overlap. I remember skiing Magic on President a Day in 2012 (the "Trick to Show Off" year) when they had the Tali and Wizard all the way open, plus Trick to Show Off and Magic Carpet-Wand-Hocus Pocus, and it was a great ski day. However, you get less than that, and it's just sub-scale.

Theoretically, you could execute such a plan by leveraging connections (e.g., double use of Hocus Pocus). And position yourself for quick tuck-ins of trails (e.g., connecting Medium to Lower Magic Carpet, addition of Vertigo, Tucking in Carumba, Lower Red, Trudy's, finishing up lower Talisman and Lower Wizard, etc. to get trail count #s up. Connecting everything to Hocus Pocus would also serve the Black Chair well if it's ever finished. You could even start the year with Red only serving the West Side and Green serving Lower Magic Carpet and Wand, then, as time and conditions permit, connect them (although that would create some additional demands on staffing patrol).

Unfortunately, it doesn't feel like the hill is moving in that direction. We've had minimal terrain open the past few years pre-MLK. Then, when we finally do get the terrain open, the mountain receives a flood of Indy Pass holders who save their two days for a higher trail count. It's frustrating as I seem to find myself looking out the window at either bare slopes or long lift lines (Usually, there is a sweet spot weekend where trail count is up but not up enough for Indy visitors. Hopefully, this is that weekend). I don't know how you solve the Indy Pass issue, as the mountain would go under without them; however, early-season snowmaking would smooth some of those visitors out a bit more.

So, does anyone know what prevents more snowmaking? A lot has been fixed (pipes, pond, new compressors, new guns, etc.), but we haven't seen much improvement. Perhaps it's some bad luck; maybe Magic needed these upgrades to stand still (and it would be much worse without them); perhaps it's a cash flow issue. Or maybe, just maybe, we're over the hump, and now that all the pieces are in place, we'll see a different result?

 

[MG Skier]

It seemed to me that there were a few days last season where there was a ton of snowmaking going on at the same time in January. Lower Red, Carumba, Showoff and or Trick all at the same time. Are they just taking a trail by trail approach for some reason? I'm off skis this week due to the flu. I hope to get back to the hill next weekend.

 

[skithetrees]

The approach this season is unclear at best. They were bragging this week that they made enough snow at the base, carpet area and terrain park to stay open through April. That makes no sense to me, there was already enough snow there for right now. Make snow elsewhere and then pad the base in those areas. In my free opinion, the priority should be getting show off and LMC open as two runs off green first. They need two runs and decent beginner/intermediate terrain. Funneling everyone down show off is no good. Then open red with UMC to medium, and later trick. West side only comes into play with decent openings on the east. It’s a lot of snow to make for really only two or three trails.

I will reluctantly give them a pass on the early season snow making this year and chalk it up to the pond damage. Last year was on them. They have no choice but to deliver the quad this year and an on time opening next year. If they don’t, I think most people’s patience will run out.

Regarding Indy, how much can they really make from it? At the full 380 price divided by all the mountains, how much does magic really see? I think the only value to magic is introducing people to the mountain. Unless they come back and pay for a ticket, I can’t see it as a big revenue generator. Frankly, as noted above, the Indy pass people kind of piss me off because they come track up the snow on the good days and do nothing to support the mountain on the bad days. Fair weather fans, if you will.

 

[AdironRider]

The Indy model works on somewhat of an inverse scale. The yield, basically the amount paid per redemption, starts off pretty high, not sure the exact amount, but like 80-90% of the posted daily lift ticket rate. The more redemptions a single mountain has, the lower that rate becomes for the year. So places like Jay (the most redeemed mountain on Indy I believe) get a lower per day redemption rate (who knows but let's say 50-60%), compared to say Dartmouth Skiway, which can't be that high up in redemption rankings.

Indy sold 100k passes last spring, and I'd bet at least another 50k when they opened back up in the fall. The average Indy passholder redeems 4 days. Doug Fish is on record saying 85% of Indy revenue gets returned to mountains via redemptions overall. I have to think a place like Magic is seeing probably a couple thousand redemptions overall in a given season. That isn't chump change ultimately. You are talking tens of thousands of dollars for Magic realistically, possibly six figures.

You will be hard pressed to find any Indy mountain that finds it to be a bad deal for them ultimately. That said, I also don't think Indy is creating the crowding problems you see at places like Epic or Ikon resorts. Nowhere close.

 

[drjeff]

It seemed to me that there were a few days last season where there was a ton of snowmaking going on at the same time in January. Lower Red, Carumba, Showoff and or Trick all at the same time. Are they just taking a trail by trail approach for some reason? I'm off skis this week due to the flu. I hope to get back to the hill next weekend.

Plenty of times, especially when it's cold out, they're running very little air, and a lot of water through each gun, which can result in some big whales relatively quickly. When it's warmer out, it's more air and less water typically through each gun, which results in smaller whales over the same timeframe, with often the same amount of water being pumped up the hill for use.

So in certain conditions, they may be maxed on water (which seems like it's Magic's greatest snowmaking limiting factor) and only running on a limited number of trails, whereas other, warmer times, they may be maxed on water, and seem like they're running on more trails. It's all about the ratio of air and water that ultimately determines how many guns they can run at the same time

 

[ne_skier]

They're doing the right thing by getting LMC done relatively early - that trail is a pain to make snow on, particularly the runout from what I've been told on here, but having that trail open and groomed is great for beginners coming off Green who would otherwise clog up Wand, which isn't pleasant for them or anyone else. More to magicsnowboard's post, I have to imagine that once Black is finally done, the next financial "focus", so to speak, would be snowmaking, particularly pumping capacity. The windows won't magically get bigger, but more water up the mountain will help them get more snow on one trail or snow on more trails in the same window.

 

[Newpylong]

Rollout oddities aside this year, the long term issue is largely water and water alone. They pump what, ~1200 GPM split between the 400 and 300 lines? Not only is that number half of what a hill that large should be able to move volume wise, but having two pumps feed (and only be able to feed) separate uplines is inefficient.

Do the math. An HKD Impulse (sled, viper tripod whatever) is going to use 70 ish GPM at full flow. That's 17 guns, that's not even accounting for head and friction losses, and any losses due to bleeding an open loop. Fans will easily consume well over a 100 GPM each if you let them. In temps like this they have to choose between minimal guns with high output or more guns with less output. Neither will get a lot of acreage covered quickly.

It's definitely possible to see an improvement due to efficient decision making (equipment placement, utilization, etc) that hasn't been there this year coupled with better weather, but they are never going to get close to covering all of it without more pumping capacity. Also there is a difference between covering (within the industry standard snowmaking period of say 12/1 to 2/15) and still making snow to expand in March.

 

[MG Skier]

Plenty of times, especially when it's cold out, they're running very little air, and a lot of water through each gun, which can result in some big whales relatively quickly. When it's warmer out, it's more air and less water typically through each gun, which results in smaller whales over the same timeframe, with often the same amount of water being pumped up the hill for use.

So in certain conditions, they may be maxed on water (which seems like it's Magic's greatest snowmaking limiting factor) and only running on a limited number of trails, whereas other, warmer times, they may be maxed on water, and seem like they're running on more trails. It's all about the ratio of air and water that ultimately determines how many guns they can run at the same time

Thanks drjeff. That makes sense and yes, it was cold the day I remember a ton of equipment running IIRC.

 

[slatham]

Big whales on middle Magic Carpet today……

 

[letitsnow1]

It was a good afternoon. Great coverage in the glades with plenty of soft turns. No bare ground to be found. It looks like most of the mountain will be open this weekend

 

[ne_skier]

Alpine Update on conditions and trail openings:

The snowmaking crew has made great progress with mid-Upper Carpet (through the woods) done and Lower Magic Carpet close. The half-foot+ of new snow on top of the base this week is skiing in well, especially in the trees where it doesn't get blown off. We opened 25 trails today and expect to add Witch to Goniff and Up Your Sleeve, for almost the entire East Side on Friday while we finish up Lower Magic Carpet for the weekend. Also for the weekend, there will be West Side openings, although there is some wind-impacted steeps that will have some variability.

And the fun part:

Quad Update: Pfister Mountain Services is replacing a blower motor this week. No definitive timetable for load testing but we are closer than we've ever been.

Looks like a good weekend of skiing, if Goniff is opening and they're teasing the West Side, I have to imagine they'll have the majority of the mountain open by Saturday. Actually no, it'll be awful, don't come.

 

[skithetrees]

Alpine Update on conditions and trail openings:

And the fun part:

Looks like a good weekend of skiing, if Goniff is opening and they're teasing the West Side, I have to imagine they'll have the majority of the mountain open by Saturday. Actually no, it'll be awful, don't come.

That was the killer. Another problem, no timetable to solve. At least the skiing should be good this weekend. Hopefully the cold keeps people away.