The NEW Magic Mountain

[Do Work]

Where are there examples of Magic publicly trashing other areas in their marketing? I'm not seeing it on their website. I follow them on Facebook and nothing has ever really stood out.

All I see is Magic differentiating themselves from the competition with the uniqueness of their product. The only thing I see in a casual review of their website is a slight ribbing of Killington for a couple of former K employees joining the Magic team. You really have to look for that though. I'm sure 99% of visitors to their site won't even find the "hmmmmm" comment. If that makes you not want to ski there because they are being mean to Killington, well then you might be a bit uptight.

Is it just ski forums some feel that Magic puts down other areas? Even that is a bit of a stretch.

I mean maybe on forums there's a little bit of ribbing towards others

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There are no examples because we don't. Never have. Well, except of course where I stated above that Magic has superior powder skiing terrain and leaves more fresh out there for the customers- which is nothing new and hardly trashing anyone. Everybody knows those things. Heck, all of the Stratton managers that live on Magic Circle will straight up tell you the same exact thing, Strat BANKS on that. If they are looking for groomers, trail count or a village we happily send them across the valley- where we also have many friends that work and play. There is 0 animosity between mountains around here, and a little something for everyone.

I don't get where people think we are "trashing" other mountains by pointing out our very obvious differentiation (which we HAVE to do in order to not get lost in the ocean of competition among peers with massive marketing budgets), and are the only mountain I'm aware of that actually limits day ticket sales to preserve the uncrowded slopes we regularly laud the virtues of... So I really don't understand the idea that we are out to gouge people for every penny of profit- that's simply not the case and never was or will be. We actually give up a ton just to try to get locals and those who have a hard time affording it otherwise venues of access... I understand how the internet works, though. Someone will always think that because we are real people that we are subpar in our efforts, and I'm ok with that too. We go WAY above and beyond to promote transparency and there's 150+ pages of answers and communication here to prove it. The people who understand what we are doing and the tiiiiiiny niche we are hand-chiseling out for ourselves in this space dominated by giants will continue to appreciate it, and that's all I can really work for effectively.

I can only hope that enough people "get it" to balance out the ones starving for outrage enough to feel slighted by our marketing schtick or promotional deals' limitations or restrictions. Whatever harm felt there is certainly unintended- but one might even wonder if it's unavoidable once you reach a certain level of popularity or success though. Transparency and communication will always be a double edged sword and we will try to continue to communicate things as we can, but this whole "Magic gets away with stuff" is a load of bull that I absolutely reserve the right to take issue with. As seen above, we can't even get away with speaking candidly and realistically without dozens of posts complaining. It's really quite ridiculous once suing people gets brought up, and nobody but me thinks that is hilariously out of line. We will keep posting, but I will certainly be dialing it back- not that I personally feel some kind of way about what was said but I'm increasingly concerned that there's nothing I can say and I don't have time to back-and-forth with people when they will never quite understand what I'm saying anyways. Cheers to everybody for caring though, the snow is coming soon!

 

[Do Work]

It shouldn't be about putting down other places to try to lift yourself up

This does not get it right in my opinion. From what I have seen Magic has great relationships with other mountains. Okemo gave or sold them some terrain park equipment. Stratton was enthusiastic about selling Magic the new lift. Magic is not even really a competitor with the industry giants and they clearly have no ill will toward Magic, rather the opposite.

Magic is rebuilding a run down business. Many people still think it is closed! In order to get noticed on a budget, it makes noise and has a cheeky attitude. Also, it seeks to differentiate itself with what it has. Terrain, less traffic and old school feel.

Very much this. Thank you good sir :beer:

 

[Hastur]

Pointing out that Stratton, mount snow and okemo are the corporate groomer kings = Trashing?

Who is sensitive again?

I love having all the different options in So VT.

Anyway, I hope the Magic management team keeps posting here.

 

[sull1102]

I don't see Magic trying to compete directly with Stratton/Bromley/Snow. Why should they, it's harder terrain, less grooming, more woods, overall less amenities and you go there to ski and not for other reasons.

Magic's biggest competition is probably Mad River Glen and maybe some sleeper areas like Pico where people enjoy getting a deal and skiing woods and some steeps. The advantage to Magic is shorter drive, probably lower prices, and the fact that if the snow is good, it's just as good as NoVT (in some cases better).

Actually I think what they are doing is carving a niche and the whole "Throwback" pricing and vibe is part of that.

I work in marketing and I'm not concerned for them if they continue course as such. I would be concerned if they started trying to compete directly with Stratton and Snow.

Stratton and Snow don't get SKI THE EAST kids on powder days. Just saying. And if you've been to Bromley lately you know they have some work to do to maintain their clientele, a much worse situation to be in than Magic IMO which is rising.

Magic closest comparable resorts would be MRG and Pico. Magic's competition is most certainly Bromley amongst others. Stratton not so much, they are a true juggernaut especially with the resources Alterra bring to the table. This region does not have enough skiers to think that almost every single skier is not a potential customer(and why would you not look at it that way when rebuilding an almost dead business?You are creating a whole new product so even if you are just borrowing people from that mountain and this mountain on a Sunday after they ski there season pass mountain the day before that is a huge win). Even the families from the Upper East Side going to the Stratton mansion every weekend with the Range Rover are potential customers. You get a few of them they tell a few friends etc etc. With the introduction of the new Green Lift, the magic carpet, plus that safe small town vibe Magic is really looking like a great family mountain in the years to come.

Snow most certainly does get the SKI THE EAST kids on powder days, one of the great things about Carinthia and all the effort that goes into the best park in the East. I would be one of these SKI THE EAST kids. Not all of us jump in the car and drive the 4-6 hours up to Jay whenever it dumps.

Do Work, perhaps you missed where I said it is hilarious for people to even bring up suing over these things?

Always funny to see how quickly things can escalate when you start talking about a lightning rod like Magic on here or over on SJ. The critics are harsh and often completely unrealistic and the defenders go bananas defending the place, there is no other mountain in world like it lol.

 

[bdfreetuna]

Magic closest comparable resorts would be MRG and Pico. Magic's competition is most certainly Bromley amongst others. Stratton not so much, they are a true juggernaut especially with the resources Alterra bring to the table.

Snow most certainly does get the SKI THE EAST kids on powder days, one of the great things about Carinthia and all the effort that goes into the best park in the East. I would be one of these SKI THE EAST kids. Not all of us jump in the car and drive the 4-6 hours up to Jay whenever it dumps.

#1 Park skiing and riding is a completely different sport and irrelevant to my interests. I get that it's important to some people but I do appreciate that Mount Snow keeps the saggy pants crowd in one area

#2 Speaking as someone who's driving up I-91 in western mass.... Bromley / Stratton / Snow are *never* alternatives to Magic for me. Although they may offer better skiing on some occasions and I will take advantage of that. It's all about the snow conditions, what kind of skiing I want to do that day, and how far I want to drive. So I consider "comparable mountains" (I guess we agree Pico fits the bill somewhat) their competition on a day-to-day basis. Last year during the March mega-storm, for example, I went to Magic for Day 1 and Mad River Glen for Day 2. Those were the places I wanted to ski in epic conditions and I made it work.

Last year I also went to Bromley one day but it was the day after a decent snowfall, and I chose nice grooming over choppy leftovers. Bromley delivered very well in that case. Stratton I probably will not go back to unless it's midweek and I have essentially a free ticket. Not my style over there.

#3 I understand my skiing habits are probably out of the norm

 

[BenedictGomez]

Meh, the fact there's even a "debate" here seems to suggest that it's likely a pennywise-and-pound-foolish decision on Magic's part from a business perspective to change pricing if there's a Thursday dump.

Especially given this is a rare, midweek event, rather than an ongoing, repeatable occurrence where there'd be a significant financial impact. Unless the delta in revenue from these rare Thursday walk-ups is truly enormous (which I doubt), I'd say the smarter decision from a marketing perspective is to just leave the Thursday price at the original level and keep whatever minority of customers you're annoying, happy instead. No, the customer isn't "always right", but they usually at least have a legitimate point.

 

[bdfreetuna]

^ I have been there on a couple pow thursdays the last few years and they were absolutely packed, literally at or beyond capacity for their lifts, lodge and parking.

I think days like this DO help the operators out substantially especially after a warm stretch or some other weather related BS. Black Line Tavern packed to the brim all day plus long lift lines, I can totally understand why they want to charge full price.

Maybe with more lifts running it alters the equation.

 

[JamaicaMan]

there is no other mountain in world like it lol.

This is true.

Passion.

 

[mister moose]

I can only hope that enough people "get it" to balance out the ones starving for outrage enough to feel slighted by our marketing schtick or promotional deals' limitations or restrictions.

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That's internet gold - the "starving for outrage" part. Hope you don't mind if I use that someday.

​

We will keep posting, but I will certainly be dialing it back- not that I personally feel some kind of way about what was said but I'm increasingly concerned that there's nothing I can say and I don't have time to back-and-forth with people when they will never quite understand what I'm saying anyways. Cheers to everybody for caring though, the snow is coming soon!

Up the road at Killington and Kzone we had a Director of Communications years ago that would come on and try to address almost every issue. There were numerous antagonists on the board that would make sport of cutting him up. He seriously lacked the humor, insight, straightforwardness and backbone to do a good job of it. Win Smith and Steve Wright are two that have done a good job of it at their respective resorts, with very different styles. Mike Solimano now comes on Kzone occasionally to set the record straight when some issue goes to hyper drive. He doesn't participate often but he does so with clarity.

Candid communication is valuable, drawn out spats with folks you can't please is not. So my 2 cents is dial back the frequency if you need to. Dial back the need to respond to every jab, your actions speak louder over the long run than a few internet posts. Just don't dial back the clarity or responsiveness.

 

[Jully]

Do Work, perhaps you missed where I said it is hilarious for people to even bring up suing over these things?

Always funny to see how quickly things can escalate when you start talking about a lightning rod like Magic on here or over on SJ. The critics are harsh and often completely unrealistic and the defenders go bananas defending the place, there is no other mountain in world like it lol.

To be fair to Do Work, he comes on here not super frequently and sees a bunch of posts, some more inflammatory than others, complaining about Magic. I don't blame him if he misses/misattributes who said what complaint about Magic. You may be quoted, but I think it safe to assume you are not supposed to be the sole recipient of his frustration. He's speaking to a crowd and responding to multiple posts at once.

 

[jaytrem]

Where are there examples of Magic publicly trashing other areas in their marketing?

There are no examples because we don't.

I think this quote is what people had a bit of an issue with...

"Should you decide to pay their exorbant fee, you’ll find their terrain is also far inferior, that most of the snow is already groomed down and there are hundreds more people skiing it up."

That being said, I mostly agree with the statement. But I can see how it can be a bit off putting when it comes from somebody representing Magic.

Anyway, I do appreciate everything you guys are doing. I'm shooting for a March 7th powder Thursday at Magic!!! Might be my kids first time there (unless we get an earlier one in), very excited! Last 2 years they could ski much better than they could pull down safety bars, so double chairs were occasionally an issue.

 

[Jully]

Yeah, sorry about not hiring a pricey PR agency but then we’d have to charge more ;-)

Hey, everything we do has consequences here. Not sure I understand the thought the Magic gets away with things other places don’t. Customers make decisions every day with their wallet. I know that the Throwback Thursday policy has cost us a few customers over the last two years as I have personally dealt with the complaints. We try to publish, state and re-state the policy over and over so it’s clear upfront that our special, promotional Thursdays do not include holidays or powder days as we’ve received some complaints on both. Our everyday price is $74. On our “Throwback Thursdays” it goes to $29–and there have been a bunch of kick ass ski days at $29—4-5 fresh inches, bluebird packed-powder days which some people actually like more than powder days. But with a 6” plus storm where more than 50% of our terrain will be open it will be our regular everyday price of $74 just like Friday’s-Sunday’s and holidays (many areas even charge more for holidays).

We listen, we debate and we make decisions here on what is best to do from pricing to infrastructure projects. We are not perfect and we will make mistakes. But in the last two years we’ve been pretty open and transparent on everything going on so people can make their own minds up about whether Magic is the type of place for them.

We try to be a bit more creative with some of our product offerings and it’s interesting that some resorts have followed our actions—more areas have started offering a heavily discounted day, more areas have offered VTer days like we do. But, some people have decided that a Throwback Thursday policy or a powder day skinning policy turns them off and we lose a customer. Others will decide they get what we are doing and commit to coming here more often. Thankfully there has been more of the ladder. But the idea that we are getting away with something is really ridiculous. It’s all about providing choices for customers. Ours is just one of many great choices out there but we are purposely trying to show there is a different way to go skiing and riding if you are so inclined. Throwback Thursdays are a way to try Magic at a low cost or reward those close by with a cheap day of skiing. Powder days are special here and we feel it’s a day deserving of our regular priced ticket. Those who commit early and buy online can still get a great deal. The online marketplace has changed the industry so resorts are now adjust pricing and inventory all the time based on conditions and heavy traffic periods. What we are trying to do with our every day pricing, Throwback Thursdays, Locals days, Throwback Cards, Freedom 4 packs, is provide an alternative that’s more affordable while at the same time insuring that Magic is sustainable over the long term.

I’ve heard from some people that putting in the new Green Mid Mtn Chair is a mistake and that no one used that chair in decades past. But strategically we need to offer a product to more folks than just expert skiers. Green not only does that, but with the way we’ve added glades it will offer a ton a great variety off that lift for all skier types and with a smaller footprint for early season snowmaking, we should be able to open earlier!

There are no guarantees here, all we can do is make the best judgements on what gives customers a great value and unique experience while providing a means for Magic to be a viable business entity.

We like our chances. We are always listening to our customer and communicating. Not every one will like the decisions we make and will make a decision that’s best for them. That’s free enterprise. That’s the marketplace. But deceptive practices are not our thing. We communicate what our policies are and you all take it from there—and know that we will listen to reasonable suggestions and perhaps change our minds. There are some good ideas out there. And some aren’t. That’s where we get to choose.


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Snowballing forum discussions are always a risk/nasty side effect of interacting directly with a passionate community like this. As a relative outsider to this most recent discussion, the comments by the vast majority of those involved (especially yours and do work) I think have helped clarify this policy (and clarified it a few months ago when the same discussion happened).

I hope this doesn't change your attitude towards AZ and/or the community involvement and interaction you've been doing. Its really awesome, unique, and appreciated.

Almost every comment made in this thread comes from a thoughtful and genuinely interested place. It may appear misinformed and armchair quarterback-y to you all in the trenches, but (at least it appears to me) that most people don't feel any vitriol towards Magic. They're trying to make (admittedly unsolicited) constructive critiques. No one means anything bad by it!

 

[sull1102]

#1 Park skiing and riding is a completely different sport and irrelevant to my interests. I get that it's important to some people but I do appreciate that Mount Snow keeps the saggy pants crowd in one area

I'll take this off topic just briefly. Dont be such a donkey! I am so sick and tired of this a-hole attitude from people that say crap like "the saggy pants crowd" guy get with the times, it isn't 2005 anymore. AND idrc if you're a little racist and backwards but boy oh boy is there a pretty healthy dose of racist sentiment when you say things like "saggy pants crowd" so I'll call you on that too. The park crowd has changed a lot over the past few years and I see a whole hell of a lot of your "crowd" creeping through the park year round doing your little kickers and such so you may pretend you hate the parks and oh the young saggy pant crowd is so unbearable then go to MRG and have a goddamn ball when the natural snow is nowhere to be found. Should I be coming on here talking about how I can't stand the preppy tight pant race kids and lodge moms running around like they own every single mountain and base lodge they invade on any given day? Taking up every square inch of the place. AND BTW the parks and the younger crowd are what keep YOUR SPORT ALIVE. I'd even argue the "park crowd" has benefitted MRG in the sense that people with suck attitudes such as yours go to MRG more now than you would if they allowed all people that enjoy the mountains. While the older crowd ages out us younger people is practically funding these places now. As we go from the park back to the bunny hill with the munchkins that we introduce to the sport we most certainly are a part of the same sport. That is just such silly complete garbage and really strikes a nerve with me.

 

[bdfreetuna]

Dont be such a donkey!

I care about park skiing so little that I'm not even going to defend my statement. I will say most pants were saggy last year @ Carinthia so maybe you should tell them to get with the times instead

Really didn't expect "saggy pants" comment to draw such a response but oh well. Literally there are entire lines of winter clothing designed to sag and worn primarily by park skiers lol

 

[Newpylong]

So DW/JM, how's that Green chair going? Lol

 

[JamaicaMan]

So DW/JM, how's that Green chair going? Lol

Oooookay.

Lower bull wheel now locked and almost loaded as haul cable splicing likely to happen on Friday.




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[AdironRider]

Ahahahaha this guy is losing it. Waaaaah I could sue in NH hahahahaha

I had no idea we were so cool!! Hahahaha this is awesome, I needed a laugh. Thanks, guy. You’re the real MVP today.

This is great way to present yourself as an owner.

You should know I've been to your joint twice since you took over. Not a ton of revenue sure, but you won't ever see any from me again.

 

[urungus]

You’ll be totally fine, the ledges are the only sketchy part. Far skiers’ left is a nice point-and-shoot (just send it, don’t try to turn) and the middle/right is all choose-your-own-adventure steep face, usually bumped up and sometimes a few rocks mixed in for fun. Once you do it once you’ll go back for more!

To add to this, there is another unnamed connector that is just above the ledges that takes you back to HOM. So you can sample the upper section of Black Line and see how it goes.

And there is a connector ("Link"?) FROM HOM that comes into BL just below the ledges, so you can get a look at the ledges before committing, and ski the last pitch of BL which is very nice.

Occasionally Brownie will groom Broomstick to upper BL to unnamed connector to HOM to connector ("Link") to lower BL. Two groomers wide. Its a nice treat when he does it......

JM and DW, seems there are a couple of connectors that need names, at least on the map.

Thanks for the tips guys! Looking forward to making my first trip down "Black Line". By the way, the connector on skiers left of "Black Line" just above the ledges appears to have been called "French Connection" on the 1981 trail map. The connector from the end of Broomstick (top of Black Line) back over to HOM appears to have been a green run named "Face To Face" on the 1987 trail map. These two maps (available at skimap.org) also show names for many of the other unnamed connector trails I have noticed while riding up the Red Chair (e.g. Swiss Connection, Blue Liftline)

 

[Harvey]

Are you complainers also outraged that the weekday discount lift ticket rate at most resorts is not valid on holidays? How is “Thursday rate does not include powder days” any different than “weekday rate does not include holidays” ?

This.

Who's a capitalist and who isn't? Who sincerely believes that businesses should have the right to set prices where ever they choose? What businesses don't charge more for their most desirable product?

What were prices like at the other SoVT mtns the day you got "gouged" or whatever? If they were better, why didn't you go there?

Like every other mountain out there, Magic has to make money. Many costs are fixed. Weather is a huge variable, it can be bad or really bad and generate huge loses. How to pay for that? Charge more when people will pay it.

SMFH

 

[shwilly]

I probably shouldn't get involved at all, but I can't help it.

AND idrc if you're a little racist and backwards but boy oh boy is there a pretty healthy dose of racist sentiment when you say things like "saggy pants crowd" so I'll call you on that too.

Come on, now. Context matters. If someone were grousing about "city kids these days and their baggy pants," then yes, you might fairly call out racial overtones.

But New England skiers are about as lily white a demographic as you will find. I wish it were more diverse, but it is what it is. Almost all of the saggy pants-wearing park skiers in NE are white. bdfreetuna was clearly just referring to park kids without any racial implication.

Anyway! Hope Magic gets great snow this year and I'll see you all in court when I sue for some free tickets.