The NEW Magic Mountain

[JamaicaMan]

Hey, would it be beneficial to bring any tools, etc. To volunteer day this weekend? Or do you have all that covered?

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Yes, ok to bring your own small hand tools for cutting branches or clearing brush. No chain saws. Thanks!


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[ss20]

Holy shit I caused 30+ posts on the Magic thread in one day in the middle of September...guess we're getting desperate... :-o

 

[sull1102]

What? I don't work in the industry or have any skin in the game at all. I'm just continually amazed with how much shit Magic gets away with because you think they are cool. NO other established resort could pull this without getting eviscerated on social media, in reviews, and public opinion. Name one other resort that could?

But hey, keep on keeping on, I'm not one to tell someone how to spend their money.

I'll stick my neck out there a bit and say that I agree with the idea of what you are saying. For now Magic is still small enough to get away with stuff like this. Their customer base is mostly made up of die hard skiers that live and breath Magic and Vermonters. For them the place can do no wrong and they are eager to defend the place to the absolute max so there's always going to be this very fast snapping back at people who disagree with something going on.

Just think those working at the mountain might want to remember when they get a little snarky on here that you are taking that attitude with a potential customer and his/her family. You wouldn't want to Do a lot of Work and then take an attitude with people that might have $$ for you this season and turning them away because of a silly post on a silly forum. Not a big deal of course, just saying...

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[Do Work]

I'll stick my neck out there a bit and say that I agree with the idea of what you are saying. For now Magic is still small enough to get away with stuff like this. Their customer base is mostly made up of die hard skiers that live and breath Magic and Vermonters. For them the place can do no wrong and they are eager to defend the place to the absolute max so there's always going to be this very fast snapping back at people who disagree with something going on.

Just think those working at the mountain might want to remember when they get a little snarky on here that you are taking that attitude with a potential customer and his/her family. You wouldn't want to Do a lot of Work and then take an attitude with people that might have $$ for you this season and turning them away because of a silly post on a silly forum. Not a big deal of course, just saying...

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Oh we welcome input. It’s when people who have obviously never been to Magic complain about our attempt to offer low cost skiing on a great mountain during the week- but that we still will absolutely reserve the right to pay some bills should the fair weather fans be descending... it’s funny to me just how entitled people can really be. There are literally dozens of ways to get a smoking deal on that ticket but NOOOOOOOO- they want to walk up to the window the day of a dump and get the greatest deal on earth with no effort whatsoever on their part. They don’t want to buy from loftopia, support Magic with a multi pack or a Throwback card- that’s too much for them! They want the Veruca Salt discount and they want it now, they may even threaten to sue for it!

I say that’s a poor attitude. We do everything we can to offer affordable skiing and like ten people work very hard here. Internet People will always find a problem, but we are a ski area and a damn fine one at that. Don’t like our pricing? You’ll find all other area mountains even more expensive but by all means enjoy that search. Should you decide to pay their exorbant fee, you’ll find their terrain is also far inferior, that most of the snow is already groomed down and there are hundreds more people skiing it up. One might even say in that case you would cost yourself money AND pow by acting like Magic was pulling some kind of fast one, when our pricing is both clear and fair, people just can’t be bothered to read or pay any attention at all nowadays. We aren’t in the business of apologizing for being the cheapest, best skiing around and I’m still lost on why people are upset- and by “people” I mean AR so that term is used loosely haha

Those who know Magic know full price is still a bargain and that’s why they aren’t complaining. Heck, we offer an entire season pass for less then Vail charges for a day ticket- and nobody there will ever post here. Go figure.

 

[sull1102]

Do Work,

I totally understand what you are saying and the fact that someone or perhaps multiple parties have actually even said the word "sue" in regards to a Throwback Thursday ticket shoes just how sad parts of society have become. That's just craziness. However, I still think there's some room for a little understanding. I just went to the Sox game last weekend against the Astros with my brother. We picked that game got those tickets back in May for pretty cheap and because I, like most of the league, figured that Astros would be competitive this season and that series would matter or be a preview of the ALCS. If the Sox had reached out and say hey there's a premium game fee on these tickets because the game is better, well they'd probably get sued lol. But there's more relevant examples as well, Snow with the St. Paddy's Day $17 ticket. If they started cranking up the price a week out because of a pow day people wouldn't be happy.

The solution, which like you just said some people want that walk up to the window $17 no matter what scenario, might be to go to a system like Snow has adapted for their big discount days. As opposed to the old way of just unlimited cheap tickets on Founders Day, St. Paddy's Day, and whatever other discount days there are, they now sell them ONLY ONLINE. No games, no changing price or decisions to be made in the days beforehand. They also limit the tickets, so once those 1,000 or 3,500 discounted tickets are sold they price jumps up a bit. At a place the size of Magic you could even utilize Liftopia's same day selling and tell people at the window they might want to check online first. Then those angry people at the window are THRILLED because the woman working the window just hooked them up with a great deal, people remember that stuff.

Finally one last thing just in general. I work in a industry where competition is fierce and there's 10+ companies making products that are incredibly similar, in fact companies blantantly copy each other all the time. A lot of the time people in the industry when they start out will trash another brand up and down just to get the sale or to make the brand they work look better. The thing is though, it should be looked at like everyone is a diamond, but our diamond has this, this, and this. It shouldn't always be this petty every corporate mountain sucks their terrain cannot hold a candle to the might Glebe Mountain, they destroy all the powder runs with groomers, and are too expensive (they really aren't crazy when you know what to look for and when I just paid $399(and could have spread paying for that from March to August on the payment plan for an unlimited season pass to 5 mountains in the Northeast and two other little guys in PA that I'll never go to). It shouldn't be about putting down other places to try to lift yourself up, and sometimes I feel like maybe I read more or it's damn close to 50/50 that I'm read stuff about other mountains deficits and not Magic's greatness. It can be looked at as tho Magic is great because the other places sucks, not because it is great on it's own. If I like those other places and was thinking about Magic for a day then I read them trashing my beloved Stratton or whatever home mountain I'm at, well I like my mountain. That backfire in the long term.

But honestly the fact that we're even talking about this stuff shows how far you guys and the team have brought Magic in a very short amount of time. Keep up the good work!

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[slatham]

You’ll be totally fine, the ledges are the only sketchy part. Far skiers’ left is a nice point-and-shoot (just send it, don’t try to turn) and the middle/right is all choose-your-own-adventure steep face, usually bumped up and sometimes a few rocks mixed in for fun. Once you do it once you’ll go back for more!

To add to this, there is another unnamed connector that is just above the ledges that takes you back to HOM. So you can sample the upper section of Black Line and see how it goes.

And there is a connector ("Link"?) FROM HOM that comes into BL just below the ledges, so you can get a look at the ledges before committing, and ski the last pitch of BL which is very nice.

Occasionally Brownie will groom Broomstick to upper BL to unnamed connector to HOM to connector ("Link") to lower BL. Two groomers wide. Its a nice treat when he does it......

JM and DW, seems there are a couple of connectors that need names, at least on the map.

 

[deadheadskier]

I just think people are looking at this whole thing backwards. I see it as Magic offers already one of the best walk up rates in the Northeast for the quality they provide. However, if you are uncertain that the skiing will be good, here's an incredible incentive to come join us on Thursdays for $29. If you are on the fence about whether the conditions warrant the full walk-up rate, we still want you to come check us out for short money.

Heck, I think a similar incentive at all ski areas would be a great thing for a sport with flat growth.

One industry I've seen something similar is golf. It's usually a last minute thing, but I've seen courses offer last minute specials when the weather looks poor and they know attendance might be low the next day. At least with the Magic promotion you can plan on the incentive being available most Thursdays of the season.

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[Do Work]

Finally one last thing just in general. I work in a industry where competition is fierce and there's 10+ companies making products that are incredibly similar, in fact companies blantantly copy each other all the time. A lot of the time people in the industry when they start out will trash another brand up and down just to get the sale or to make the brand they work look better. The thing is though, it should be looked at like everyone is a diamond, but our diamond has this, this, and this. It shouldn't always be this petty every corporate mountain sucks their terrain cannot hold a candle to the might Glebe Mountain, they destroy all the powder runs with groomers, and are too expensive (they really aren't crazy when you know what to look for and when I just paid $399(and could have spread paying for that from March to August on the payment plan for an unlimited season pass to 5 mountains in the Northeast and two other little guys in PA that I'll never go to). It shouldn't be about putting down other places to try to lift yourself up, and sometimes I feel like maybe I read more or it's damn close to 50/50 that I'm read stuff about other mountains deficits and not Magic's greatness. It can be looked at as tho Magic is great because the other places sucks, not because it is great on it's own. If I like those other places and was thinking about Magic for a day then I read them trashing my beloved Stratton or whatever home mountain I'm at, well I like my mountain. That backfire in the long term.

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If that’s what you got out of what I wrote, I am done here. People will truly hear wherever they are looking for no matter what I say. I love how different the other mountains nearby are and think it’s a huge advantage to people planning a vaca... but I digress. We can’t even speak to our advantages without hurting feelings anymore it seems. Have a nice day and look me up if you ever do come across the valley, I’d be happy to show you around.

 

[jaytrem]

It shouldn't be about putting down other places to try to lift yourself up

This I agree with. As soon as a vendor starts bashing a competitor I try to avoid purchasing from them. Big turn off.

 

[mister moose]

People seem to be complaining that Magic can't or shouldn't set prices based on conditions. That Magic shouldn't be able to set prices as they see fit.

Early season, when an area only has one or two runs open, they charge a reduced rate. Once it snows or they make sufficient snow and most of the area is open, they then raise their rates to "normal". There is no date or announcement when this increase will be. So how much different is it for Magic to decline to offer a discount when their terrain expands? There are also certain holidays when weekdays are not discounted, and that is common practice.

The one difference is that Magic's decision to discount or not might get made with very little or even no advance notice. That policy is stated well in advance, so that any skier that has a clue on the accuracy of predicting snowstorms can make an informed decision. Anytime there are flakes in the air you should expect to pay full tilt on Thursdays. Go with that and you won't be disappointed.

I see creative price structure by a small independent private company on one hand, and some whining on the other hand. Granted Magic could use more pricey PR polish, but then that's just more whining.
​

 

[slatham]

Here's to hoping it snows 6" every F'ing Thursday this winter!

 

[cdskier]

I totally understand what you are saying and the fact that someone or perhaps multiple parties have actually even said the word "sue" in regards to a Throwback Thursday ticket shoes just how sad parts of society have become. That's just craziness. However, I still think there's some room for a little understanding. I just went to the Sox game last weekend against the Astros with my brother. We picked that game got those tickets back in May for pretty cheap and because I, like most of the league, figured that Astros would be competitive this season and that series would matter or be a preview of the ALCS. If the Sox had reached out and say hey there's a premium game fee on these tickets because the game is better, well they'd probably get sued lol.

Not sure I understand your analogy. If you buy the tickets for Magic in advance, they don't upcharge you either if it ends up being a powder day. It is only the people that wait to the last minute that get "upcharged" and have to pay the normal rate (not a premium rate...just the normal rate). There are plenty of industries out there that use a supply and demand pricing model. Buy early and lock in a good rate or wait until the last minute and take a chance that maybe rates will still be the same or maybe they go up if demand increases. That isn't price gouging (especially when you're still only raising prices up to a maximum of your normal rate).

Bottom line - they are offering a discount on non-powder Thursdays to drive business to the mountain on an otherwise slower day. I fail to see any issues with that.

 

[tumbler]

You can see the stress of owning and working at a ski area manifesting itself here. For DW and JM it is personal and they are taking it as such. The everyday skier is not on this forum so I would not use this as the gauge for the market. We used to stay away from the forums because they were so negative and unrealistic. It is a private business, they can do what they want and charge what they want. I have always been amazed at how cheap people can be on here. They want the area to be open and everything running an perfect midweek but cannot pay full price for a lift ticket and never buy food in the lodge. How do you think this business make money?

However, building on a previous post, stop putting all the other mountains down, you are coming across petty. I hope your public marketing campaign does not do this. You are a small mountain in Southern Vermont that can be a day trip alternative to the larger hills and that has a troubled history of staying open. Be positive, welcome everyone to come and try. Talk about what you are doing and ignore the other areas. The better they are doing, the better you will be doing...

 

[sull1102]

You can see the stress of owning and working at a ski area manifesting itself here. For DW and JM it is personal and they are taking it as such. The everyday skier is not on this forum so I would not use this as the gauge for the market. We used to stay away from the forums because they were so negative and unrealistic. It is a private business, they can do what they want and charge what they want. I have always been amazed at how cheap people can be on here. They want the area to be open and everything running an perfect midweek but cannot pay full price for a lift ticket and never buy food in the lodge. How do you think this business make money?

However, building on a previous post, stop putting all the other mountains down, you are coming across petty. I hope your public marketing campaign does not do this. You are a small mountain in Southern Vermont that can be a day trip alternative to the larger hills and that has a troubled history of staying open. Be positive, welcome everyone to come and try. Talk about what you are doing and ignore the other areas. The better they are doing, the better you will be doing...

110% agree with you here, maybe 120%! If you go on their site there is A TON, like WAY TOO MUCH, of this we're the alternative to the big crowded expensive corporate ski areas for the rich vibe going around. That's not a path to long term sustainability. Also, you NEED, whether you like it or not doesn't matter, NEED conquest guests from Snow/Stratton/Bromley. I like Snow and I like Stratton, of Magic is always trashing my favorite mountains to build themselves up it just is not goof. What happens when some other little upstart undercuts you on price or "Vermontiness" and suddenly people view you as the big corporate guy in town. And if anyone thinks that can't happen, personally I think Magic has a good shot under the right management to rise above Bromley in the little skiing triangle.

Do Work, you should re-read my post a couple times and think about what I said. I actually started off by agreeing with you and your response is well I'm done here ya bunch of cry babies. You might not like it dude but you represent a business on here, a business that until very recently was usually hours away from bankruptcy, and you are an integral part of that operation that's throwing around this big attitude. That's not a good look. I know you guys don't genuinely believe you are better than everyone else, but that's only because I have met you in person and many of the people up there and know you are good people. It could very easily comes off like you guys think you are genuinely better than everybody if I'm just a random person perusing the ski forums.

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[JamaicaMan]

Yeah, sorry about not hiring a pricey PR agency but then we’d have to charge more ;-)

Hey, everything we do has consequences here. Not sure I understand the thought the Magic gets away with things other places don’t. Customers make decisions every day with their wallet. I know that the Throwback Thursday policy has cost us a few customers over the last two years as I have personally dealt with the complaints. We try to publish, state and re-state the policy over and over so it’s clear upfront that our special, promotional Thursdays do not include holidays or powder days as we’ve received some complaints on both. Our everyday price is $74. On our “Throwback Thursdays” it goes to $29–and there have been a bunch of kick ass ski days at $29—4-5 fresh inches, bluebird packed-powder days which some people actually like more than powder days. But with a 6” plus storm where more than 50% of our terrain will be open it will be our regular everyday price of $74 just like Friday’s-Sunday’s and holidays (many areas even charge more for holidays).

We listen, we debate and we make decisions here on what is best to do from pricing to infrastructure projects. We are not perfect and we will make mistakes. But in the last two years we’ve been pretty open and transparent on everything going on so people can make their own minds up about whether Magic is the type of place for them.

We try to be a bit more creative with some of our product offerings and it’s interesting that some resorts have followed our actions—more areas have started offering a heavily discounted day, more areas have offered VTer days like we do. But, some people have decided that a Throwback Thursday policy or a powder day skinning policy turns them off and we lose a customer. Others will decide they get what we are doing and commit to coming here more often. Thankfully there has been more of the ladder. But the idea that we are getting away with something is really ridiculous. It’s all about providing choices for customers. Ours is just one of many great choices out there but we are purposely trying to show there is a different way to go skiing and riding if you are so inclined. Throwback Thursdays are a way to try Magic at a low cost or reward those close by with a cheap day of skiing. Powder days are special here and we feel it’s a day deserving of our regular priced ticket. Those who commit early and buy online can still get a great deal. The online marketplace has changed the industry so resorts are now adjust pricing and inventory all the time based on conditions and heavy traffic periods. What we are trying to do with our every day pricing, Throwback Thursdays, Locals days, Throwback Cards, Freedom 4 packs, is provide an alternative that’s more affordable while at the same time insuring that Magic is sustainable over the long term.

I’ve heard from some people that putting in the new Green Mid Mtn Chair is a mistake and that no one used that chair in decades past. But strategically we need to offer a product to more folks than just expert skiers. Green not only does that, but with the way we’ve added glades it will offer a ton a great variety off that lift for all skier types and with a smaller footprint for early season snowmaking, we should be able to open earlier!

There are no guarantees here, all we can do is make the best judgements on what gives customers a great value and unique experience while providing a means for Magic to be a viable business entity.

We like our chances. We are always listening to our customer and communicating. Not every one will like the decisions we make and will make a decision that’s best for them. That’s free enterprise. That’s the marketplace. But deceptive practices are not our thing. We communicate what our policies are and you all take it from there—and know that we will listen to reasonable suggestions and perhaps change our minds. There are some good ideas out there. And some aren’t. That’s where we get to choose.


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[ss20]

The solution, which like you just said some people want that walk up to the window $17 no matter what scenario, might be to go to a system like Snow has adapted for their big discount days. As opposed to the old way of just unlimited cheap tickets on Founders Day, St. Paddy's Day, and whatever other discount days there are, they now sell them ONLY ONLINE. No games, no changing price or decisions to be made in the days beforehand. They also limit the tickets, so once those 1,000 or 3,500 discounted tickets are sold they price jumps up a bit. At a place the size of Magic you could even utilize Liftopia's same day selling and tell people at the window they might want to check online first. Then those angry people at the window are THRILLED because the woman working the window just hooked them up with a great deal, people remember that stuff.

I think this is a great idea...I got a $12 Powder Day at Mount Snow a couple years ago because of it. They didn't charge me another $65+ when I got there :razz:

 

[bdfreetuna]

110% agree with you here, maybe 120%! If you go on their site there is A TON, like WAY TOO MUCH, of this we're the alternative to the big crowded expensive corporate ski areas for the rich vibe going around. That's not a path to long term sustainability. Also, you NEED, whether you like it or not doesn't matter, NEED conquest guests from Snow/Stratton/Bromley. I like Snow and I like Stratton, of Magic is always trashing my favorite mountains to build themselves up it just is not goof. What happens when some other little upstart undercuts you on price or "Vermontiness" and suddenly people view you as the big corporate guy in town. And if anyone thinks that can't happen, personally I think Magic has a good shot under the right management to rise above Bromley in the little skiing triangle.

I don't see Magic trying to compete directly with Stratton/Bromley/Snow. Why should they, it's harder terrain, less grooming, more woods, overall less amenities and you go there to ski and not for other reasons.

Magic's biggest competition is probably Mad River Glen and maybe some sleeper areas like Pico where people enjoy getting a deal and skiing woods and some steeps. The advantage to Magic is shorter drive, probably lower prices, and the fact that if the snow is good, it's just as good as NoVT (in some cases better).

Actually I think what they are doing is carving a niche and the whole "Throwback" pricing and vibe is part of that.

I work in marketing and I'm not concerned for them if they continue course as such. I would be concerned if they started trying to compete directly with Stratton and Snow.

Stratton and Snow don't get SKI THE EAST kids on powder days. Just saying. And if you've been to Bromley lately you know they have some work to do to maintain their clientele, a much worse situation to be in than Magic IMO which is rising.

 

[deadheadskier]

Where are there examples of Magic publicly trashing other areas in their marketing? I'm not seeing it on their website. I follow them on Facebook and nothing has ever really stood out.

All I see is Magic differentiating themselves from the competition with the uniqueness of their product. The only thing I see in a casual review of their website is a slight ribbing of Killington for a couple of former K employees joining the Magic team. You really have to look for that though. I'm sure 99% of visitors to their site won't even find the "hmmmmm" comment. If that makes you not want to ski there because they are being mean to Killington, well then you might be a bit uptight.

Is it just ski forums some feel that Magic puts down other areas? Even that is a bit of a stretch.

I mean maybe on forums there's a little bit of ribbing towards others

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[JoeB-Z]

It shouldn't be about putting down other places to try to lift yourself up

This I agree with. As soon as a vendor starts bashing a competitor I try to avoid purchasing from them. Big turn off.

This does not get it right in my opinion. From what I have seen Magic has great relationships with other mountains. Okemo gave or sold them some terrain park equipment. Stratton was enthusiastic about selling Magic the new lift. Magic is not even really a competitor with the industry giants and they clearly have no ill will toward Magic, rather the opposite.

Magic is rebuilding a run down business. Many people still think it is closed! In order to get noticed on a budget, it makes noise and has a cheeky attitude. Also, it seeks to differentiate itself with what it has. Terrain, less traffic and old school feel.

 

[skithetrees]

Yeah, sorry about not hiring a pricey PR agency but then we’d have to charge more ;-)

Hey, everything we do has consequences here. Not sure I understand the thought the Magic gets away with things other places don’t. Customers make decisions every day with their wallet. I know that the Throwback Thursday policy has cost us a few customers over the last two years as I have personally dealt with the complaints. We try to publish, state and re-state the policy over and over so it’s clear upfront that our special, promotional Thursdays do not include holidays or powder days as we’ve received some complaints on both. Our everyday price is $74. On our “Throwback Thursdays” it goes to $29–and there have been a bunch of kick ass ski days at $29—4-5 fresh inches, bluebird packed-powder days which some people actually like more than powder days. But with a 6” plus storm where more than 50% of our terrain will be open it will be our regular everyday price of $74 just like Friday’s-Sunday’s and holidays (many areas even charge more for holidays).

We listen, we debate and we make decisions here on what is best to do from pricing to infrastructure projects. We are not perfect and we will make mistakes. But in the last two years we’ve been pretty open and transparent on everything going on so people can make their own minds up about whether Magic is the type of place for them.

We try to be a bit more creative with some of our product offerings and it’s interesting that some resorts have followed our actions—more areas have started offering a heavily discounted day, more areas have offered VTer days like we do. But, some people have decided that a Throwback Thursday policy or a powder day skinning policy turns them off and we lose a customer. Others will decide they get what we are doing and commit to coming here more often. Thankfully there has been more of the ladder. But the idea that we are getting away with something is really ridiculous. It’s all about providing choices for customers. Ours is just one of many great choices out there but we are purposely trying to show there is a different way to go skiing and riding if you are so inclined. Throwback Thursdays are a way to try Magic at a low cost or reward those close by with a cheap day of skiing. Powder days are special here and we feel it’s a day deserving of our regular priced ticket. Those who commit early and buy online can still get a great deal. The online marketplace has changed the industry so resorts are now adjust pricing and inventory all the time based on conditions and heavy traffic periods. What we are trying to do with our every day pricing, Throwback Thursdays, Locals days, Throwback Cards, Freedom 4 packs, is provide an alternative that’s more affordable while at the same time insuring that Magic is sustainable over the long term.

I’ve heard from some people that putting in the new Green Mid Mtn Chair is a mistake and that no one used that chair in decades past. But strategically we need to offer a product to more folks than just expert skiers. Green not only does that, but with the way we’ve added glades it will offer a ton a great variety off that lift for all skier types and with a smaller footprint for early season snowmaking, we should be able to open earlier!

There are no guarantees here, all we can do is make the best judgements on what gives customers a great value and unique experience while providing a means for Magic to be a viable business entity.

We like our chances. We are always listening to our customer and communicating. Not every one will like the decisions we make and will make a decision that’s best for them. That’s free enterprise. That’s the marketplace. But deceptive practices are not our thing. We communicate what our policies are and you all take it from there—and know that we will listen to reasonable suggestions and perhaps change our minds. There are some good ideas out there. And some aren’t. That’s where we get to choose.


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At the risk of sounding like a fanboy, we have been property owners at the mountain since the 80’s before it closed and have seen a lot. Heck, we have even been small investors. You are by far the most professional, respectful, transparent and competent owners the mountain has had in 30 plus years. You are literally reversing 30 years of decline and mismanagement and its been only a year. Well done.

PS, loved the triple when I was a kid and riding up over the pipe. I think it’s a great, family friendly addition.