The Over $300 lift ticket has arrived. FU#K OFF at those prices.

[2planks2coasts]

Many of those onesey twosey customers just won't bother skiing.

Or they won't bother skiing again.

 

[deadheadskier]

I think the best solution for the industry to preserve the casual skiing market is ultra cheap buddy passes.

The way I see it, even with the EpiKon BS, there are indeed many places that do still offer a fair enough value. Some regions are better for it than others admittedly.

There are three problems though.

1. Not enough casual skiers know about the good value areas because they don't market well with their small budgets.

2. If the casual skier does know about them, they might not realize that the skiing experience (especially when it snows and they're inspired to go) can often be better than a major resort. Fewer lines, less skied off/out snow, easy free parking, cheaper lodge food that can be better than the big boys

3. The casual skier often only goes when invited by a diehard with a pass.

So, why not entice your core pass holder to invite friends with aggressive buddy pass prices. 50% off daily rate seems about right given the retail rates. Why not? It's incremental income at $150 a ticket vs zero income because you expect $300.

If the industry has to do the cheap pass thing to get the guaranteed income to keep the lights on, then keep doing that, but be mindful of the future of the sport and don't price out Mr 3 day.

 

[1dog]

I think the best solution for the industry to preserve the casual skiing market is ultra cheap buddy passes.

The way I see it, even with the EpiKon BS, there are indeed many places that do still offer a fair enough value. Some regions are better for it than others admittedly.

There are three problems though.

1. Not enough casual skiers know about the good value areas because they don't market well with their small budgets.

2. If the casual skier does know about them, they might not realize that the skiing experience (especially when it snows and they're inspired to go) can often be better than a major resort. Fewer lines, less skied off/out snow, easy free parking, cheaper lodge food that can be better than the big boys

3. The casual skier often only goes when invited by a diehard with a pass.

So, why not entice your core pass holder to invite friends with aggressive buddy pass prices. 50% off daily rate seems about right given the retail rates. Why not? It's incremental income at $150 a ticket vs zero income because you expect $300.

If the industry has to do the cheap pass thing to get the guaranteed income to keep the lights on, then keep doing that, but be mindful of the future of the sport and don't price out Mr 3 day.

Good post. In Mad River Valley though Alterra would lose out on Quad passes ( $530 for 4 purchased before Nov 30th) and the $99 day plus get Day 2 free ( after April 1). I am constantly selling or giving 3-4 away at years end from March 20th on. . . . can be had for $50-$75 on local e- newspaper late season.

Have a number of friends who were former 20--25 days a year skiers who simply won't come w their kids or families because they will spend a grand on tickets. They just don't go.

Like a lot of Wall St. its about the quarter end, not the long term view.

 

[Hawk]

If you ski you buy a pass. If you don't and want to try, there are many smaller mountains to go to for far less. You are never going to here from me that the prices are high. I ski, a lot. My daily cost is about $20. That is the choice I made so I can ski and not worry about scraping together different trips every weekend. Not for nothng, but it is a privilege and not a right. It's not subsidized by the government or made to be cheap so everybody can enjoy it. It is a business. Like it or not, this model works for the large corporations and is probably here to stay for at least a bunch more years. I watch this board and see so many people that bitch about cost and yet they have nice cars, nice equipment, speend money on all kinds of shit but don't like the cost of doing business. All I can say is prioritize what is importain and fund the fun. Cut somthing else out.

As I said before about Sugarbush. I do hope that prices go up and cull the heards of IKON People. The invasion of new skiers is the only thing I dislike but it is what is. Oh well for me.

 

[Hawk]

Good post. In Mad River Valley though Alterra would lose out on Quad passes ( $530 for 4 purchased before Nov 30th) and the $99 day plus get Day 2 free ( after April 1). I am constantly selling or giving 3-4 away at years end from March 20th on. . . . can be had for $50-$75 on local e- newspaper late season.

Have a number of friends who were former 20--25 days a year skiers who simply won't come w their kids or families because they will spend a grand on tickets. They just don't go.

Like a lot of Wall St. its about the quarter end, not the long term view.

That's the thing. They could get a base pass for less than a grand and ski all winter. Make the investment and then use it. I have made all my relitives and friends buy a pass. It motivates them to ski. NONE of them regret the decision when April rolls around and they skied 20 days at $50 bucks a day.

 

[deadheadskier]

I think you are underestimating the number of people who only have the time and/or desire to ski a few times a year. I also think you are misguided in assuming this commentary is people concerned about their own costs. I'm not. I'm concerned about others. Also Hawk, you are a D.I.N.K. Many such folks don't understand how kids and their competing interests makes it difficult to be a frequent skier. Had I not luckily gotten my kids into skiing and not wanting to do other things in winter, I would be in that boat.

I think of my buddy Dana who I actually convinced to come to a couple of AZ summits back ten years ago and he would join me on a couple day trips a year pre-kids. Deals like Groupon and what not were readily available back then. He stopped coming several years ago after having kids. Well to do Boston suburb family with two $150k + incomes. But, when he looked at getting back into the sport and the replacement costs of his aging equipment, new equipment for his his family that hadn't skied before and then the cost of tickets today compared to 10-15 years ago plus lodging, he's for sure done for life.

You cut all those people out and guess what? The prices start to skyrocket for the rest of us. This reality is probably in part to do with why you have paid parking and $14 beers now at many places. Making up for volume on margin.

 

[Hawk]

I hear what you are saying and I do understand the situation that people are dealing with. My point is that in this climate you need to make a choice. If you have kids in sports, a tough job and other commitments, well then your option is to ski Gunstock or King Pine or Tenny, etc. Also I have tons of friends and relatives who really wanted to ski with us. They bought a cheaper pass or quad packs or something like that. Unfortuantely for most, I really don't think that most of the larger resorts really care that much about the future skiers. Like or not, thier investments are based on 5 or 10 year returns and then they sell out. you can not grow a ski area that much. it's impossible. Either way you have to make a choice. We on here only have the ability to lament what they deside to do. We have Zero impact.

Also If I had Kids, which is a sore subject altogether for us, they most likey would have been skiers based on thier genes. ;-)

 

[drjeff]

I hear what you are saying and I do understand the situation that people are dealing with. My point is that in this climate you need to make a choice. If you have kids in sports, a tough job and other commitments, well then your option is to ski Gunstock or King Pine or Tenny, etc. Also I have tons of friends and relatives who really wanted to ski with us. They bought a cheaper pass or quad packs or something like that. Unfortuantely for most, I really don't think that most of the larger resorts really care that much about the future skiers. Like or not, thier investments are based on 5 or 10 year returns and then they sell out. you can not grow a ski area that much. it's impossible. Either way you have to make a choice. We on here only have the ability to lament what they deside to do. We have Zero impact.

Also If I had Kids, which is a sore subject altogether for us, they most likey would have been skiers based on thier genes. ;-)

The kids thing is a strange one. My wife and I are fortunate enough that both of our kids (now almost 21 and 19) were raised as skiers, had friend sets up at Mount Snow who were raised as skiers, and they still both love to ski. We have had other friends, who's kids lost interest in skiing/riding as they entered their mid/late teens, and as such, even the parents now don't ski as much as they used to. Had my family not had the fortunate opportunity to be able to go to Mount Snow most every weekend during ski season since our kids were old enough to ski, I am not sure that they'd be still into the sport as much as they are today, as the potential for more involvement with their CT home peers may have been more calling than their VT skiing peers. I also feel strongly that both of them having many of their ski peers in full seasonal programs every year, helped them develop that strong network of peers that had them wanting to go skiing every weekend with their friends, rather than potentially just tagging along with Mom and Dad to ski

 

[raisingarizona]

I hear what you are saying and I do understand the situation that people are dealing with. My point is that in this climate you need to make a choice. If you have kids in sports, a tough job and other commitments, well then your option is to ski Gunstock or King Pine or Tenny, etc. Also I have tons of friends and relatives who really wanted to ski with us. They bought a cheaper pass or quad packs or something like that. Unfortuantely for most, I really don't think that most of the larger resorts really care that much about the future skiers. Like or not, thier investments are based on 5 or 10 year returns and then they sell out. you can not grow a ski area that much. it's impossible. Either way you have to make a choice. We on here only have the ability to lament what they deside to do. We have Zero impact.

Also If I had Kids, which is a sore subject altogether for us, they most likey would have been skiers based on thier genes. ;-)

They don’t care to develop new skiers because they are paying attention to climate science.

 

[deadheadskier]

The kids thing is a strange one. My wife and I are fortunate enough that both of our kids (now almost 21 and 19) were raised as skiers, had friend sets up at Mount Snow who were raised as skiers, and they still both love to ski. We have had other friends, who's kids lost interest in skiing/riding as they entered their mid/late teens, and as such, even the parents now don't ski as much as they used to. Had my family not had the fortunate opportunity to be able to go to Mount Snow most every weekend during ski season since our kids were old enough to ski, I am not sure that they'd be still into the sport as much as they are today, as the potential for more involvement with their CT home peers may have been more calling than their VT skiing peers. I also feel strongly that both of them having many of their ski peers in full seasonal programs every year, helped them develop that strong network of peers that had them wanting to go skiing every weekend with their friends, rather than potentially just tagging along with Mom and Dad to ski

Exactly this. You can do everything possible to introduce kids to the sport, but peer influence can change everything. Even earlier than teen years. My daughter is a dancer. We were at her recital Saturday instead of skiing. My son is a drummer. I'm certain we will miss many days skiing in the future attending his school concerts.

And a big reason why I have our kids in seasonal programs is the relationships just as much as skill development. I know the day is fast approaching that they will no longer want to ski with dad as much.

 

[drjeff]

And a big reason why I have our kids in seasonal programs is the relationships just as much as skill development. I know the day is fast approaching that they will no longer want to ski with dad as much.

I have 1 skiing "rule" in my family, and that is we HAVE to try and find 1 day each season that all 4 of us can take a few runs together (with both kids in college now and our older 1 away every weekend from basically New Years through Presidents Week for her college club ski races) and then their Spring breaks (different weeks of course.... ) it's not as easy as it used to be, but we find a way to make it happen still.... Looking like this year it will be this coming Saturday as our somewhat family Christmas gift to each other!

 

[4aprice]

Kids are one thing. I have 2 that we taught to ski. one is totally hooked to it and lives in Colorado, my daughter however, is recently married, has a husband who has skied but not found a suitable pair of boots (ie uncomfortable feet) has stepped away from the sport for a couple of years. The nice thing is she/they were talking about taking it up again and looking forward to getting out and vacationing out at our place in Granby. I'm sure we can find a good boot fitter out there for our son-in-law.

But my experience has been that I've seen more guys that I knew give it up when they met their significant others. The girls just don't like the cold and don't ski.

 

[eatskisleep]

I know of several friends who were 1-2X per year skiers (used to be fantastic skiers) but just don’t have the funds to ski anymore so they won’t even go now. I know there are always good deals to be found… but it just seems crazy that lift tickets are now almost as much as a season pass

Or they won't bother skiing again.

 

[AdironRider]

I think you are underestimating the number of people who only have the time and/or desire to ski a few times a year. I also think you are misguided in assuming this commentary is people concerned about their own costs. I'm not. I'm concerned about others. Also Hawk, you are a D.I.N.K. Many such folks don't understand how kids and their competing interests makes it difficult to be a frequent skier. Had I not luckily gotten my kids into skiing and not wanting to do other things in winter, I would be in that boat.

I think of my buddy Dana who I actually convinced to come to a couple of AZ summits back ten years ago and he would join me on a couple day trips a year pre-kids. Deals like Groupon and what not were readily available back then. He stopped coming several years ago after having kids. Well to do Boston suburb family with two $150k + incomes. But, when he looked at getting back into the sport and the replacement costs of his aging equipment, new equipment for his his family that hadn't skied before and then the cost of tickets today compared to 10-15 years ago plus lodging, he's for sure done for life.

You cut all those people out and guess what? The prices start to skyrocket for the rest of us. This reality is probably in part to do with why you have paid parking and $14 beers now at many places. Making up for volume on margin.

I'm sorry, but your friend Dana isn't trying very hard. Or like pretty much every friend I have that's a parent, they are just using cost as an excuse for they really just don't have the motivation to rally a family up to the mountains for a day on their one free Saturday over the next 8 weeks. That story is as old as time.

1) Buying in advance is completely the norm now. You could buy a holiday rate ticket for Waterville for almost 20 percent off as of last week. I know this because my sister is the 2-3 day a year skier and did just that. You can buy day tickets out into March or April for significantly less. Your example above is not chasing a Tuesday powder day and is going to be planning ahead when the calendar allows. Or you can just buy a day ticket for tomorrow on a holiday for a whopping $86 right now. Guess what a lift ticket to Waterville cost in the 90s in todays dollars? $88.

2) Even if you don't buy in advance, there are a multitude of Indy areas that are still quite cheap. Storrs Pond is free to everyone all year this year as an extreme example. If you are skiing once or twice a year, that is plenty of terrain for you.

3) Equipment rentals have stayed constant in terms of cost. When I was 14 I spent my first paycheck on a lift ticket and rentals. The rentals cost me 40 bucks. I was just in Lincoln last week and there was a shop, right off the highway (can't remember the name), that would rent me a kit for 40 bucks for the day. That's less than half price adjusted for inflation.

4) The current pricing structure has actually made skiing cheaper for the rest of us significantly. A pass back in the 90s at Killington cost $1500. That is over 3 grand in today's dollars. I can buy a pass, at peak pricing mind you and not a spring pass sale price, for 1779 today. That's 60% of what a season pass used to cost comparatively adjusted for inflation. Or you can buy an Indy to your local joint. An Upper Valley resident for example most likely has someone in the family that works under the Dartmouth umbrella. That gives you access to a season pass for a whopping 119 dollars on the spring pass rate, or 229 now. That's cheap fun. Or just buy an Indy pass and crush skiing at Waterville, Cannon, or Jay for like 300 bucks total.

5) The current pricing model is objectively more sustainable, as mountains have guaranteed revenue and can manage operations accordingly. Meanwhile, back in the 80s and 90s mountains dropped like flies, with hundred closing up shop due to fluctuations in weather in revenue.

The idea that you are entitled to ski at Stowe or Mascara Mountain for 12 dollars on a lark has never been true. Kind of like how people say it snowed a ton back in the 70s when the reality is the late 70s and early 80s had snow years that were miniscule compared today (look it up its true). Some mountains didn't even open. A lot never opened back up because no one showed up or bought season passes. With inflation, skiing is objectively cheaper in almost every way. The memory is a funny thing, and I think for most they are remembering the best deal they ever scored as if it was the norm, when the reality was they just got a really good deal once.

Now the reality is that skiing has always had a cost to entry that is exponentially higher than basketball or soccer, and that will always be the case. I've mentioned this already in this thread, but skiing is now cheaper than attending virtually any major league sporting event or concert, but it is not going to be the same price as attending a movie, and never has been.

Nevertheless, I moved back from Jackson 4 winters ago and I have spent under 2 grand all in between Indy passes, a four pack of tickets to Jay last year, and a new Burton snowboard setup. You can't buy a mountain bike for that that doesn't start with an H and end with an uffy by the way.

 

[deadheadskier]

That's one anecdotal example I provided. I have a multitude of high school and UVM ski friends like Dana who gave up the sport. Seems more gave it up than stayed on to be honest. The reason almost always given is cost as an infrequent skier. When they did ski, it was often last minute and not planned, but that was pretty kids for everyone. The same folks drop big money several times a year on pro sports games or concerts. Maybe they'd have done the same back twenty years ago when things seemed more reasonable for the casual skier. I certainly know it's never been cheap.

Good subjects for an industry article: Cost of Sport vs Inflation ; Growth of Participants vs Population Growth.

And yeah, every seasoned skier knows there's been horrible snow years since the start of time. Come on now

 

[BenedictGomez]

I think you are underestimating the number of people who only have the time and/or desire to ski a few times a year.

Oh, you mean like most skiers (literally)?

I think for years it was something like 5 days, but of course passes have juiced that number by a few days; regardless though, the average person isnt skiing anywhere near 20 or 40 days or whatever.

 

[BenedictGomez]

They don’t care to develop new skiers because they are paying attention to climate science.

You must mean climate alarmists.

I'm genuinely fascinated by people who believe as you do though, ironically mentioning "science" coinciding with your view, which completely ignores the actual science.

 

[drjeff]

You must mean climate alarmists.

I'm genuinely fascinated by people who believe as you do though, ironically mentioning "science" coinciding with your view, which completely ignores the actual science.

At 53 now, I hope to be skiing another 30 or more years in the Northeast... if not, it's because either the big guy upstairs has other intentions for me, or some other physical limitations happen. Doubt climate would be what would cause me from not achieving that goal!

 

[4aprice]

You must mean climate alarmists.

I'm genuinely fascinated by people who believe as you do though, ironically mentioning "science" coinciding with your view, which completely ignores the actual science.

Wasn't it like 2 years ago that there were record snows (mostly out west) and the season went deep into the summer?

 

[4aprice]

BTW haven't seen this posted here but there are still some deals in ski country.

https://www.boston25news.com/news/l...4PmzI8C-oVxL4RMIfg_aem_JjePhsX12tpPKF5sgGfpOQ