Vail to buy Stowe?

[gregnye]

Sugarbush wasted no time in sending out an e-mail referencing the Vail purchase of Stowe...Interesting shots taken at Stowe with respect to the potential crowd issues Epic could cause. I get the impression that Sugarbush is laying the groundwork for making no substantial changes to their pricing strategy (which is what I've been saying I thought they would do).

After reading their email. Let me translate: "We will never lower pass prices because somehow, we at Sugarbush consider ourselves in the same realm as Stowe, when in reality our atmosphere, quality (literally everything) is like Jay Peak. Therefore, rather than using this opportunity to join up with other mountains, we plan on doing nothing, just as we always have and hope that people decide to come."

Like come on. The Sugarbush pass is now literally the worst deal for everyone, even as a college kid. I was considering their college pass this year but it literally makes no sense. It's more expensive than the killington one, and its only valid at Sugarbush and Mad River, neither of which are a sound investment when it comes to snowmaking (Mad river could be closed a whole season). The Killington 4.0 still wins--although the terrain at K is nothing like Sugarbush /End Rant

 

[benski]

After reading their email. Let me translate: "We will never lower pass prices because somehow, we at Sugarbush consider ourselves in the same realm as Stowe, when in reality our atmosphere, quality (literally everything) is like Jay Peak. Therefore, rather than using this opportunity to join up with other mountains, we plan on doing nothing, just as we always have and hope that people decide to come."

Its marketing. He is just trying to spin the story a little more in Sugerbush's favor.

 

[WWF-VT]

No offense, but I'll take the "special nature" of Stowe, Smuggler's Notch, or Jay Peak over Sugarbush. There is literally nothing "special" about the Mad River Valley compared to Stowe from a competitive standpoint. Nothing.

Pretty strong opinion for a guy from New Jersey

 

[cdskier]

Win Smith's prose is dripping with fear.
...

No offense, but I'll take the "special nature" of Stowe, Smuggler's Notch, or Jay Peak over Sugarbush. There is literally nothing "special" about the Mad River Valley compared to Stowe from a competitive standpoint. Nothing.

If you read fear in that, you don't know Win. I saw a very smart businessman who has expected this to happen for a while and wants to reassure people that Sugarbush will be just fine.

I also know a lot of people that would disagree with you that there's "nothing" special about the MRV.

Sugarbush will be fine. Rising tide lifts all boats. I read no "fear" in Win's prose at all.

Agreed.

After reading their email. Let me translate: "We will never lower pass prices because somehow, we at Sugarbush consider ourselves in the same realm as Stowe, when in reality our atmosphere, quality (literally everything) is like Jay Peak. Therefore, rather than using this opportunity to join up with other mountains, we plan on doing nothing, just as we always have and hope that people decide to come."

Are you sure you've been to the MRV and Sugarbush? Sugarbush's pass pricing was nowhere near Stowe's prior to this deal. They might now be the most expensive in N VT, but if you look at VT as a whole they are really not overpriced (and you get a lot better terrain and snow at SB compared to some S VT resorts that charge similar prices) What atmosphere and quality issues do they have? The atmosphere in the MRV and at SB is incredibly laid back. People go there because they like to ski.

Like come on. The Sugarbush pass is now literally the worst deal for everyone, even as a college kid. I was considering their college pass this year but it literally makes no sense. It's more expensive than the killington one, and its only valid at Sugarbush and Mad River, neither of which are a sound investment when it comes to snowmaking (Mad river could be closed a whole season). The Killington 4.0 still wins--although the terrain at K is nothing like Sugarbush /End Rant

Worst deal? That's laughable. Let's do the math on a couple scenarios and compare SB vs K since you brought up K. (I'm using last year's early purchase pricing)

One adult (36 years old)
$1139 K v $1149 SB ($10 more is brutal!)

One adult (in their 20s)
$599 K v $339 SB (this deal is clearly the worst!)

One adult (in their early 30s)
$1139 K v $499 SB (oops...clearly this deal is even worse than the last one...although to be fair this was a new pass offering SB started in the early fall after Stowe announced a similar one for this age range)

Family of 4 (2 adults 36+ and 2 kids <=12)
$3356 K vs $2298 SB (SB gives a free 12 and under pass for every adult pass purchased...but they are so overpriced)

Family of 4 (2 adults 36+ and 2 kids 13-18 )
$3356 K vs $2996 SB

College kid
$349 K (includes Okemo and Mt Sunapee) vs $369 SB (include MRG) - This one K has an edge, but it is very close. If you're hellbent on saving money though, you can always go with the pure SB college pass without the MRG option for $329 (or even the ME only one for $229)

I could go on...but I think this covers a pretty nice range of scenarios.

Sorry for the sarcastic rant, but I'm just so annoyed by people saying SB is such a bad deal and so overpriced when clearly they aren't if you look at the actual numbers. If you wait until the last minute to buy your pass, well then all bets are off. I get that sometimes people have situations that require waiting, but I'd like to think most people that know they are skiing buy their passes at the best rates in the spring for the following season. Those are the numbers I compared.

Will SB be more expensive than Stowe as a result of Epic? Absolutely in many scenarios (but not all scenarios). But to say they are now the worst deal in VT is insane.

 

[cdskier]

Pretty strong opinion for a guy from New Jersey

I'm from NJ as well but I completely disagree with him on his opinion in this case.

 

[KD7000]

These people will file lawsuits if you intend to cut a single tree. They are not the conscientious and respectful stewards of the environment that they purport to be, they are bullies and self-righteous "religious" ideologues with a cult-like mentality, who ironically & unwittingly often do more harm than good to the environmental causes they support.

In this case, however, their silly, self-righteous, histrionics will lead to the outcome that I support (i.e. no Stowe/Smuggs merger), so.... go them.

Who are "these people" ?

 

[bushpilot]

Will SB be more expensive than Stowe as a result of Epic? Absolutely in many scenarios (but not all scenarios). But to say they are now the worst deal in VT is insane.

My son snowboards so MRG is out. My next closest mountain would be bolton. Adult season pass is 649 and youth is 179 = $828. I could have bought a Mt Ellen ticket (can ski at LP until Mt Ellen opens and then can ski closing weekend at LP. That pass costs $689. Bolton has no high speed lifts. Worse snow making and is this season did not open 100% until February. The LP deal is 1,700 now but pre labor day was 1,200. Another 400 for an extra month plus of skiing and a mountain 2x as big as Mt Ellen. If you bought it in the spring is was 899. Seems like a pretty good deal to me compared to my other option.

 

[gregnye]

Sorry for the sarcastic rant, but I'm just so annoyed by people saying SB is such a bad deal and so overpriced when clearly they aren't if you look at the actual numbers. If you wait until the last minute to buy your pass, well then all bets are off. I get that sometimes people have situations that require waiting, but I'd like to think most people that know they are skiing buy their passes at the best rates in the spring for the following season. Those are the numbers I compared.

Will SB be more expensive than Stowe as a result of Epic? Absolutely in many scenarios (but not all scenarios). But to say they are now the worst deal in VT is insane.

Ok maybe the adult deals are average, but in order to be successful in the long run Sugarbush needs to keep newer customers coming. Who are the newer customers? The College kids. A lot of people on here don't know the general college season pass trends (who could blame them?) but this year at my college it was mostly in favor of Peaks/Mt Snow...etc. with Killington 4.0 second most popular.

You also have to factor in the season length. Remember all that concern on here about water restrictions and how much snowmaking they could make? Meanwhile Killington was just blasting away making snow=More reliable home mountain as sugarbush is better for day trips.

Now Sugarbush is already way ahead of Stowe in terms of marketing to college kids, as Stowe had no real college discount day tickets at all. However Sugarbush has a long way to go. They need to join up with other mountains on other passes to be successful now (presuming that a cheaper epic college pass is now valid at stowe).

Don't get me wrong I love it though!

 

[cdskier]

Ok maybe the adult deals are average, but in order to be successful in the long run Sugarbush needs to keep newer customers coming. Who are the newer customers? The College kids. A lot of people on here don't know the general college season pass trends (who could blame them?) but this year at my college it was mostly in favor of Peaks/Mt Snow...etc. with Killington 4.0 second most popular.

You also have to factor in the season length. Remember all that concern on here about water restrictions and how much snowmaking they could make? Meanwhile Killington was just blasting away making snow=More reliable home mountain as sugarbush is better for day trips.

Now Sugarbush is already way ahead of Stowe in terms of marketing to college kids, as Stowe had no real college discount day tickets at all. However Sugarbush has a long way to go. They need to join up with other mountains on other passes to be successful now (presuming that a cheaper epic college pass is now valid at stowe).

Don't get me wrong I love it though!

I'd argue the people that just graduated college are one of the most important demographics to grab in terms of long term success. Get them hooked at a low price so once they get jobs they can afford to pay the higher "adult" prices and keep coming. And in that market SB has been doing exceptionally well with pass sales from what I've heard (and hence the whole reason that SB started the For 20s pass 5 years ago in the first place). If College students are as important as well though as you've indicated, then price right now isn't an issue and it is purely marketing that they need to work on. I never had a pass in college though at any resort and just did day trips, so I really don't know how important this demographic is (and for all we know, SB is hitting their target numbers just not with people at your college.) I also was in college in western NY, so VT was not exactly on my radar beyond one spring break trip every year.

Season length is a factor, but I don't personally view early season as too critical. I'm not one of those people that needs to get out there and ski in October. I can wait until November/December. For late season, I could always buy a K spring pass for dirt cheap if I really wanted to ski beyond SB's closing date (and SB has made it to late April/early May most recent years which is good enough for me as too many other things start getting in the way of skiing after April).

Snowmaking is a concern, but not enough of a concern where I'm going to base my pass decision on that. Sugarbush has a decent system (not great and we definitely saw limitations, but it is adequate). Since SB usually gets more natural snow, I'm willing to take a bit of a risk for those off years where they have low natural snow and have to rely on a less powerful snowmaking system than other places like K.

 

[thetrailboss]

What does this mean? It sounds like it means they want to charge more for the leasing of the land. If the current lease terms are almost 50 years old, that would mean there is about 49 more years remaining on the lease terms since they are generally 99 year leases, correct?

Yep. Exactly.


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[VTKilarney]

Yep. Exactly.


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And let's not forget that the state is getting more over the years - without renegotiating the lease. The state gets a percentage of sales. As prices go up, the state's haul increases.

 

[cdskier]

And let's not forget that the state is getting more over the years - without renegotiating the lease. The state gets a percentage of sales. As prices go up, the state's haul increases.

And yet the auditor was arguing that the state is getting LESS now (when adjusted for inflation).

 

[VTKilarney]

Here is a gem from the Progressive auditor's report:
Finally, when the State negotiated the lease agreements, it made a crucial error by not stipulating regular opportunities to update the agreements, as the federal government does in its standardized 40-year permits with ski areas. Despite this impediment, the State and the ski resorts could work together to update and improve the leases.

 

[hovercraft]

I thought the best part of the email Win sent out was when he compared SB to Squaw or Jackson Hole. He must be high on something. If anyone doesn't think he is worried, they are delusional.

 

[cdskier]

I thought the best part of the email Win sent out was when he compared SB to Squaw or Jackson Hole. He must be high on something. If anyone doesn't think he is worried, they are delusional.

benski made an interesting observation on that in the skimrv forum...many of the resorts he mentioned are part of the Mountain Collective pass. Maybe he's hinting of joining that. Personally that does nothing for me, but good for others if it helps them. Of course it could also be just a coincidence.

I still don't think he's worried.

 

[hovercraft]

benski made an interesting observation on that in the skimrv forum...many of the resorts he mentioned are part of the Mountain Collective pass. Maybe he's hinting of joining that. Personally that does nothing for me, but good for others if it helps them. Of course it could also be just a coincidence.

I still don't think he's worried.

He should join the collective, it would help to compete. It's a nice bonus for people. I think it is only human to worry. If he isn't he should be. Worring about your business takes you out of your comfort zone and drives you to think outside the box. SB needs to innovate around this. It's not enough to say the Valley is special and leave it at that. If he does he will be in for a rude awaking IMO.

 

[bushpilot]

It's a nice bonus for people.

It is a nice bonus for those that don't have a season pass. If they do something like Bolton does for the freedom pass like providing the other resorts free or with a small up charge that would be a bonus.

 

[hovercraft]

It is a nice bonus for those that don't have a season pass. If they do something like Bolton does for the freedom pass like providing the other resorts free or with a small up charge that would be a bonus.

With my season pass at Stowe I got half price tickets at all the resorts in the collective.

 

[thetrailboss]

And yet the auditor was arguing that the state is getting LESS now (when adjusted for inflation).

He obviously doesn't understand that the WHOLE point of the somewhat discounted leases was to help the industry grow and to create jobs.


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[thetrailboss]

Sugarbush wasted no time in sending out an e-mail referencing the Vail purchase of Stowe...Interesting shots taken at Stowe with respect to the potential crowd issues Epic could cause. I get the impression that Sugarbush is laying the groundwork for making no substantial changes to their pricing strategy (which is what I've been saying I thought they would do).

Right on cue. I got that in my inbox as well. Some things were as I predicted (the "small town" thing and how the MRV is special). I saw a signal that passes are not going to get cheaper. I also thought the comments about crowding were interesting. However, unless something has changed a lot since 2011 then I would say that Lincoln Peak CAN get pretty crowded. He really focused on the crowding issue.

The comparison to Alta, Aspen, etc. was laughable. I love Sugarbush, but it is nothing compared to those resorts. Alta has the snow and a real community feel like MRG. Aspen is, well, Aspen. Even Aspen Highlands. Jackson Hole? Not even close. Squaw Valley? Host an Olympics and then come back and talk to us.

The pitch for real estate was odd and funny.

We'll see what happens, but as I predicted, they trotted out the "less crowded" and "unique local" vibe. And they did it 24 hours after the announcement.


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